The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus never said anything like that.

He sure did. But you have to remove the modern western dogmatic blinkers in order to see it.

Jesus is salvation. It's who he is, what he does. Not sure what it is about salvation that you find hard to understand. He saves. H.E.S.A.V.E.S.

If you want the incarnation of condemnation, that would be satan. What a mistake to make, a total failure of faith and reason.

 

[Clare73]

That's a very well known verse that Christians use against each other all the time, when they hold differing doctrines. It's like "I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard one Christian accuse the other of not rightly dividing the word". As far as people who hold to universal redemption are concerned, you're the one who's not rightly dividing the word, is not taking the whole message of the Bible into account, does not have a correct perspective regarding the nature of God, doesn't understand Greek properly etc etc.

Then all that remains is to demonstrate from Scripture the error in the following demonstration from the NT Scriptures:

The preponderance of the evidence showing the meaning of aionios ("an age") as used in the NT Scriptures is overwhelming, where it describes both
duration undefined but not endless (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), in only three cases, however, Titus 1:2 is resolved in John 3:16,

and duration undefined because it is endless (Romans 16:16), and in 66 other cases in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios used everywhere in the NT, except in the three cases above, is seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is in contrast to proskairos ("for a season").

Likewise, it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as in
God (Romans 16:26),
God's power (1 Timothy 6:16),
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10),
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14),
the redemption secured by Christ (Hebrews 9:12),
the resulting salvation of man (Hebrews 5:9),
Christ's kingdom (2 Peter 1:11), which is without end (Luke 1:33),
the life received through faith (John 3:16), whom shall never perish (John 10:28),
the resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1), which is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53), and in which the life of John 3:16 will be finally realized (Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2),
the sin that will never be forgiven (Mark 3:29),
the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal (Hebrews 6:2),
the fire which is one of the instruments of that judgment (Matthew 18:8; Matthew 25:41, Jude 7), which fire is unquenchable (Mark 9:43), and

to the point of restorative vs. retributive:
the punishment of 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and its purpose is not restorative, but retributive.

1) what is seen is temporal (for a season), what is unseen is eternal (2Co 4:18)
2) resurrection body is immortal (1 Co 15:53), resurrection body is eternal (2 Co 5:1)
3) eternal life of John 3:16 is the life of the immortal resurrection body (2Co 15:53)
4) eternal sin = never forgiven (Mk 3:29)
5) eternal judgment = unchanging sentence (Heb 6:2)
6) Christ's kingdom is without end (Luke 1:33), Christ's kingdom is eternal (2Pe 1:11)

 

[renniks]

He sure did. But you have to remove the modern western dogmatic blinkers in order to see it.

Jesus is salvation. It's who he is, what he does. Not sure what it is about salvation that you find hard to understand. He saves. H.E.S.A.V.E.S.

If you want the incarnation of condemnation, that would be satan. What a mistake to make, a total failure of faith and reason.

So, if I don't believe your way I don't have real faith?

 

[Clare73]

Couldn't I say the same about you? You selected three verses that support your view. One of three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.

So, what is your accompanying view of the Bible? Based on your selection, what does that say the Bible is about? God's plan to punish sinners?

And what does that say about God? That we have been born into a world created by an angry cosmic tyrant that has it in for us?

Good heavens. . .the Bible is about God's controversy with Satan; about his personal divine characteristics; his nature, laws and ways; his plan to show forth his power, glory, love and mercy through the glory of his Son in the redemption to himself of a people, not all people (see Ishmael and Esau), and to show forth his power, justice, righteousness and purity in the defeat of evil and in the condemnation of the wicked who will not have him as their sovereign and ruler (Luke 19:27).

 

[Clare73]

Gehenna is never mentioned in the OT, except for the references to the Valley de Ge'Hinnom.

So where did it come from, so as to deserve so much attention, and become the bane of Christian thinking for 2,000+ years?

Gads! The same place the purpose and meaning of his death came from.

Try Jesus in Matthew 5:22, 29, 10:28, 18:9, 20:15, 23:23; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; and then there's James 3:6.

Good grief! . . .You guys need to write your own Bible, and leave ours alone.

Well, it could only have developed as part of the 'oral tradition'. And that's mainly the Pharisees, whom Jesus spends much of his ministry rebuking for their hypocrisies. So could it be that the Pharisees weaponised Gehenna, they elevated it to the status of burning eternal hell for political purposes? I only see Jesus redeeming the concept, saving mankind from the vicious political lie. He surely doesn't deny Gehenna, but always qualifies its use with reassurances to the disciples that God's purpose and motives are good. So Gehenna has a restorative purpose, it's the place where God resets spiritual bones and bangs stubborn enemies' heads together.

So don't fall for the Pharisees' version of it, because it slanders God's holy name and paints Him as a monster. It's also paganised and worldly. God is much higher than all that. Jesus is in the business of restoring faith, hope, love, beauty, wisdom and truth out of the gloom and doom of broken images.

 

[Clare73]

Have you seen this?
It deals with the mistranslation of "eternal".

"Aionios", the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Have you seen post #542 above? It deals with the NT meaning/usage of aionios.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Have you seen post #542 above? It deals with the NT meaning/usage of aionios.

Concerning the Greek "aionios," not everyone is on the same page as to its meaning, or its proper English translation. YMMV.

 

[Clare73]

Concerning the Greek "aionios," not everyone is on the same page as to its meaning, or its proper English translation. YMMV.

Meaning in its translation is just a diversion, it's about meaning in its usage.

And post #542 demonstrates precisely what the NT means in its usage of aionios.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate any error.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Have you seen post #542 above? It deals with the NT meaning/usage of aionios.

Did you see the video?

 

[Clare73]

I appreciate what you're demonstrating, but I know that the argument over the use of aionios has been going on for a very long time. One demonstration of that was posted in this thread twice.
That doesn't automatically mean that you are wrong. But it does indicate that you might be wrong.

Nothing is demonstrated until it is done so point by point from Scripture.

Everything else is just shuffling and diversion from doing so.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Gads!

Try Jesus in Matthew 5:22, 29, 10:28, 18:9, 20:15, 23:23; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; and then there's James 3:6.

Good grief! . . .You guys need to write your own Bible, and leave ours alone.

Did you really read that post? He said "Gehenna is never mentioned in the OT except for the references to the Valley de Ge'Hinnom."

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nothing is demonstrated until it is done so point by point from Scripture.

Everything else is just shuffling and diversion from doing so.

Is that an official rule, or one that you just made up?

 

[Clare73]

Did you really read that post? He said "Gehenna is never mentioned in the OT except for the references to the Valley de Ge'Hinnom."

Yes, and he also asked where it came from? . . .your point?

So the 10 places where Jesus, the Son of God, reveals Gehenna in the NT are just chopped liver?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Good grief! . . .You guys need to write your own Bible, and leave ours alone.

Are you accusing the members you don't agree with of not being Christians?

 

[Clare73]

Is that an official rule, or one that you just made up?

If you provide the name of the office for these rules, I will contact them for you.
I'm sure they will be happy to send you a copy of that regulation, along with others like "What goes up, must come down;" "If you spit straight up, it falls in your face;" "A broken clock is right twice a day;" "It's ignorance not to know more than one way to spell a word;" etc.

 

[Clare73]

Are you accusing the members you don't agree with of not being Christians?

Are you still beating up on animals?

Are you accusing those who don't agree with the members of not being Christian?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, and your point?

And the 10 places where Jesus, the Son of God, reveals it are just chopped liver?

It's still not used in that context in the OT.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Please provide the name of the office for these rules, that I may contact them.
I'm sure they will be happy to send you a copy of that regulation.

So it's something you made up.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Are you still beating up on animals?

Nice deflection. How about answering the question?

 

[Clare73]

So it's something you made up.

Is that what the office told you?

Because it's been known for along time. You must have talked to someone new there.