Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

klutedavid

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The burnt offerings, blood sacrifices ended at the cross, not one of God's eternal commandments. I think you are confusing ceremonial laws with God's moral commandments. If the Sabbath was meant to be ceremonial I do not think God would have wrote that in with the TEN or ask that we remember it.

Both first and second covenants were written with Israel, but are we not spiritual Jews? The promises God made are for everyone, not just Jews, than the same would apply with the commandments.

Also, from my perspective, I don't see @LoveGodsWord having a short attention span. It seems like both he and BobRyan have been extremely detailed on this thread.

That said, I am going to leave it with those two to continue on. I don't see anything written that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished. I appreciate the discussion.

God bless
The fourth commandment has been fulfilled by Jesus.

Jesus met the requirements of the law head on and exceeded the demands of the entire law.

There was only one who could surpass the law and He rose from the dead.

The law only grants the knowledge of sin, the law does not sanctify.

The law was only temporary and predictive of the Christ.
 
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pasifika

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Rom 14 does not mention Sabbath - it just says "day" ... but Gal 4 flat out condemns the observance of even one pagan day.

So that leaves us with just the annual feast days of Lev 23 (the weekly Sabbath was not a feast day and was not annual, and was not given in Ex 20 but rather in Gen 2:1-3 as Ex 20:11 points out)

Romans 14 does not address not observing the weekly Sabbath (breaking one of the commandments of God)
Yes it doesn't mentioned Sabbath but Sabbath considered as "sacred day" by Jews just like the feast days in Lev 23 you quoted in your other post...

Romans 14:5...One person considers one day more "sacred " then another; Another considers everyday alike...

Galatians 4 is for Jews who once accepted the Gospel and now turn back to OT rituals of observing special days, months etc..I don't think this is pagan people that Paul is addressing here...
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 14:5...One person considers one day more "sacred " then another; Another considers everyday alike...

The word "alike" is not in the text as most Bible translators note by placing the word in "italics".
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day... he who observes the day observes it for the Lord"


Galatians 4 is for Jews who once accepted the Gospel and now turn back to OT rituals

The Christians in Galatia were gentiles -

Gal 1
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.

Heb 11 shows that the giants of the faith were from among the saints of the OT - who were Jews. Moses and Elijah stand with Christ - before the cross "in glory" -- in Matt 17.

By contrasts the gentiles were among those who did not know God and worship demons according o 1 Cor 8:6-7.

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paul is writing to a gentile church and condemning some of them who were returning to observing some of the pagan holy days.


of observing special days, months etc..I don't think this is pagan people that Paul is addressing here...

If Paul were actually condemning the holy days of scripture in Gal 4 -- then there is no way in Rom 14 he could be arguing that no one must condemn those who choose to observe them. That would not be logical.
 
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BobRyan

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The fourth commandment has been fulfilled by Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of all commandments including "do not covet" and "do not take God's name in vain".

Jesus met the requirements of the law head on

Jesus met the requirements of all commandments including "do not covet" and "do not take God's name in vain".

The Law is "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 instead of being abolished.

"What then? do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law" Rom 3:31

Which Law?

The same one in Rom 3:19-20 that condemns all mankind to this very day as sinners.

The same one Christ quoted from in Matt 19 when he was asked "Which ones" after He said to "keep the Commandments"

Well it includes the same law with the command "honor your father and mother" as "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 - in that singular unit of ten.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Agree. We do so by those who are following God's Word. While we are not here to judge, nor is it our place, scripture tells us His remnants keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12 That narrows down a lot of churches.
Precisely, this is what my testimony is about which agrees with the scriptures shared earlier. Good point imge the scriptures do narrow it right down as they describe God's people as keeping all the commandments of God not some of them. This eliminates 99% of the Christian Church's of the world today.
 
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pasifika

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The word "alike" is not in the text as most Bible translators note by placing the word in "italics".
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day... he who observes the day observes it for the Lord"




The Christians in Galatia were gentiles -

Gal 1
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.

Heb 11 shows that the giants of the faith were from among the saints of the OT - who were Jews. Moses and Elijah stand with Christ - before the cross "in glory" -- in Matt 17.

By contrasts the gentiles were among those who did not know God and worship demons according o 1 Cor 8:6-7.

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paul is writing to a gentile church and condemning some of them who were returning to observing some of the pagan holy days.




If Paul were actually condemning the holy days of scripture in Gal 4 -- then there is no way in Rom 14 he could be arguing that no one must condemn those who choose to observe them. That would not be logical.
Thanks Bob, regardless of the word "alike" not in some translations the message in Romans 14:5,6 still the same.."one observe one day above the other, another observe every day" ( one day special or every day the same)...

So since you are a natural English speaker can you interpret this verse for me in Galatians 4..

Galatians 4:12.."I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you"...
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Precisely, this is what my testimony is about which agrees with the scriptures shared earlier. Good point imge the scriptures do narrow it right down as they describe God's people as keeping all the commandments of God not some of them. This eliminates 99% of the Christian Church's of the world today.
My good friend who goes to church on Sundays was telling me today she has no idea what the Ten Commandments are. I told her to look in the back of her bible and read every scripture on the commandments and Sabbath.

Honestly, it surprises me how far we have gone away from teaching the importance of God’s laws. Just another sign that our Savior is coming soon!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The fourth commandment has been fulfilled by Jesus.

Jesus met the requirements of the law head on and exceeded the demands of the entire law.

There was only one who could surpass the law and He rose from the dead.

The law only grants the knowledge of sin, the law does not sanctify.

The law was only temporary and predictive of the Christ.

Jesus did not keep God's commandments so that we no longer have to. That idea is not biblical. God's salvation is from sin not to continue practicing sin. According to Paul those who continue in known unrepentant sin are in danger of the judgement in Hebrews 10:26-31. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Romans 6:1-23; John 8:31-36. Those who are born again to love do not practice sin which the scriptures define as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is the fruit of faith in those who believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures in Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 5:2-4. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love according to Jesus we will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven *Matthew 22:36:40; John 3:3-7; John 14:15; John 15:10; Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 5:3-4.
 
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tall73

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No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

I notice you object to it speaking of the Sabbath because it is not mentioned. But these are not mentioned either.

There is no limiting factor.

It's the only set of Bible approved days for observance - as Gal 4 points out - the pagan options are condemned by Paul.
The Sabbath is included in the appointed times.

In the small set of Bible approved days Paul says "one observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it to the Lord"

None of the options Paul gives in Rom 14 is "one man does not observe any day"

Romans 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Paul says one man observes, and the other does not observe.
 
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tall73

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At one point as wondered what the difference was between the Messianics Church's and SDA Church. After having some discussion with many of them I have learned that they still believe in the Mosiac "Shadow laws" for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary system with animal sacrifices for sin offerings and other offerings; annual Feast days; circumcision etc). So while we have some things in common with our faith in believing that God's 10 commandments are the standard for Christian living that according to the scriptures in the new covenant give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Romans 3:20l Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172; James 2:10-11 to continue a practice of the shadow laws for remission of sin according to the scriptures would be to deny the very Christ to who these Mosaic "shadow laws" all pointed to in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 that in the new covenant pointed to and are continued in.

Some hold that view. Certainly all do not hold that view among messianics.

But more to the point, the Jewish believers in Acts continued keeping the whole law. But even at the council they clearly stated they see the grace of Christ as the basis of salvation.

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.

I notice you object to it speaking of the Sabbath because it is not mentioned. But these are not mentioned either.

IN Context:
1. There was already a practice of observing some Bible holy days and not others where the weekly Sabbath was always mandatory - and that optional group was always just among the annual feast days of Lev 23. I am not adding anything to that context. Rather I am keeping it.

2. Paul clearly condemns even one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4 so "observing every day of the week" is not even an option.

3. There is just no way to wrench the Sabbath commandment that is "for all mankind" into this.
 
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BobRyan

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The Sabbath is included in the appointed times.

Every weekly Sabbath is a "day of holy convocation" as Lev 23 says and an "appointed" time .. but it is not one of the times of Gal 4 - since the context of statements made in Gal 4 prohibit it.

In Gal 4 those seasons and times "are not of God" - and we know that the "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD(YHWH)" assigning a pagan reference to that which is God's and sanctified by him - is unsafe doctrine.

Clearly Sabbath keepers like Moses and Elijah who stand in glory with Christ before the cross in Matt 17 "knew God" (in fact all the giants of faith in Heb 11 "knew God" and are still help up as examples for NT saints)

Speaking to the gentile former-pagans in the letter to the Galatians Paul says this --

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Christ Himself says "Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27 and not "Sabbath is weak and worthless" or "Sabbath is not of God"

For all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 instead of -- "Shall all mankind view the Sabbath as weak and worthless and not of God"

=================

In 1 Cor 8 Paul contrasts the weak faith of newly converted gentiles who had a pagan belief at one time - to the true religion of God - this way

1 Cor 8
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
 
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tall73

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Your response here...

It is the chapter context and subject matter that determines the topic of conversation. As posted earlier there is no scripture that talks about the Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. One needs to read this into one text in Romans 14:5 when the subject matter of Romans 14 is overwhelmingly in regards to eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard.

No, in fact the context indicates the issue is dealing with disputable matters.

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

Two different disputable matters are treated in the passage.


Issue one:

2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

This issue deals with some who eat only vegetables, while others eat everything.


Then he introduces a principle in dealing with disputable matters:


4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

He says not to judge this other believer over disputable matters. God is able to make him stand.


Then Paul introduces another disputable matter:

Romans 14:5 One person esteems a day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe.

There is no limitation on the days involved. One does not observe.

Paul is not talking about food and then stopping to say in one verse in the whole chapter changing the topic of conversation

He is not changing the topic. He started talking about disputable matters. He introduced one. He stated a principle, then introduced another disputable matter.

Then he says why pass judgment on your brother:

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


TO have an interpretation like this makes no sense to the chapter and subject matter of Romans 14, the rest of the new testament scriptures and what Paul discussed elsewhere in regards to keeping of the commandments of God making Paul in contradiction with Paul *see Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 7:19 etc) and pretty much all the new covenant scriptures (more scripture here and here). So for me Romans 14 has nothing to do with the Sabbath it is the topic of discussion and context that determines what is being discussed. There is no mention of the Sabbath at all in Romans 14 only eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days.

It discusses eating only vegetables. It doesn't indicate fasting from all food. So please spell out what you think they are talking about.

and to base that interpretation on one text that does not even mention the Sabbath is a bit of a gamble in my view.

Now this is of course a misrepresentation entirely. I told you I would go through all the verses. You thought that was not a good idea and wanted just a simple statement. So I gave you that, and now you are saying I base it all on this text.

But of course, this text says some think one day above another, and others do not. Some do not observe.
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Paul says one man observes, and the other does not observe.

Paul says "one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day .. he who observes the day , observes it to the Lord" - this still has a scenario where some day is not being observed so it still allows someone to be in the position to not-observe one of those Lev 23 annual days just as they had always done in the OT with the optional days. And in that context it was still not valid to break the Commandments of God, disregard the Sabbath commandment.

I don't see any way around this Bible detail and it appears that Bible scholars in almost all major Christian denominations also admit that ALL TEN commandments remain with the Sabbath "made for mankind" - still.
 
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BobRyan

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The eating is about whether one eats only vegetables. It is an example of a disputable matter.

The Jews never had a "dispute" about "eating only vegetables" in either OT or NT. In fact the Jews were very much inclined not to have such a view since it would be difficult to celebrate Passover under such a rule. I think we all know that.

The issue with 'vegetables only' - is not explained in Rom 14 - but it is explained by Paul in 1 Cor 8.. we know that as well.

The one "weak" in 1 Cor 8 is the former-pagan gentile. The one "weak" in Rom 14 is the one who eats vegetables only. The "weak" in 1 Cor 8 is due to the fear that meat may have been sacrificed to idols and to avoid it - eat vegetables only.

1 Cor 8
4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Now food will not bring us close to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, the one who has knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will his conscience, if he is weak, not be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brothers and sisters and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to sin.
 
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tall73

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BobRyan said:
No it isn't. Romans 14 is dealing with the bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23 in which "one person observes one day above the others while another person observes them all.. he who observes the day observes it to the Lord".

This refers to the existing OT practice where only 3 of the Lev 23 list of holy days were mandatory and the rest were optional. It is "not new" in the NT.



IN Context:
1. There was already a practice of observing some Bible holy days and not others where the weekly Sabbath was always mandatory - and that optional group was always just among the annual feast days of Lev 23. I am not adding anything to that context. Rather I am keeping it.

Context not mentioned.

But if the dispute is over some or all why are you keeping none?

2. Paul clearly condemns even one observance of a pagan holy day in Gal 4 so "observing every day of the week" is not even an option.

3. There is just no way to wrench the Sabbath commandment that is "for all mankind" into this.

Your observing every day is not in the text either. Rather one does not observe.
 
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tall73

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Your response

According to the scriptures God guides us into His truth as we seek him through His Word *John 17:17; John 6:63; John 8:31-36. If God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we reject it according to the scriptures in order to continue in known unrepentant sin Paul says there remains for us no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come because we reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31. So if the scriptures teach is that breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments is sin in James 2:10-11 why do you believe God has guided you and those who leave a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word back into sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments

A. James was keeping the entire law, including the feast days.

B. James was not just referring to the ten commandments, but all the law in this passage:

Jas 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jas 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jas 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,”

Jas 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Jas 2:7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Jas 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
Jas 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.


He notes the command to love your neighbor. But he also is referring to the command not to show partiality, which is why he says you have become judges with evil thoughts:

Deu 16:18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.
Deu 16:19 You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous.


You continually reduce things to just the ten commandments when that is not what they were doing.

Please understand that my question here is only to help me to understand what you have posted above in relation to the scriptures shared with you here and to understand your thinking nothing more.

You keep making altar calls and appeals. However, we disagree on what is required. So what do you hope to accomplish? If I make altar calls and appeals to you to keep feast days you will just post another 10 page dissertation on "shadow" laws. Yet the Sabbath is included in Col. 2. And it is a shadow law, as a sign of the covenant with Israel, as an appointed time, with sacrifices and drink offerings, pointing to God's rest at creation, and God's deliverance of Israel from Egypt.

Now if your argument is that we are Israel, then you need to start keeping feasts as well. But you are not.

Now I offered to go through every text. You refused. Then you misconstrue my position and just try to tell me to repent, when we have not gone through all of the data to even establish your position.

I pointed this out to you earlier, and you just continued to do it. So apparently you don't want a conversation on all the data. You just want to keep delivering appeals based on conclusions we do not share.
 
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tall73

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as Paul says THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH -Hebrews 4:9.

You have no biblical proof that Paul wrote Hebrews. And of course it is a hotly debated point who wrote it.

But you also changed the text.

Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God

The sabbath rest that remains is described in chapter 4, and is not the weekly Sabbath.

It is responding to him "Today" and resting from your works through the salvation provided.
 
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"one man observes one day above another while another man observes every day... he who observes the day observes it for the Lord"

Again you switched "esteemed" for "observed". And you didn't address verse 6. But it is OK.

At this point it appears LGW not only didn't want to go through every verse, but wants to just make appeals based on conclusions we don't share.

So I won't be spending much more time here. I will just address a few things for lurkers and go.
 
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tall73

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The Jews never had a "dispute" about "eating only vegetables" in either OT or NT. In fact the Jews were very much inclined not to have such a view since it would be difficult to celebrate Passover under such a rule. I think we all know that.

The issue with 'vegetables only' - is not explained in Rom 14 - but it is explained by Paul in 1 Cor 8.. we know that as well.

Agreed, but I was responding to LGW who kept talking about fasting instead of food sacrificed to idols, and didn't want to address what it said.
 
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