The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Clare73]

Christian doctrines, including all of the ones you disagree with, are determined from scripture. You can say "I speak God's truth!" But so can anyone who believes in a doctrine that you don't, because their doctrine is based on scripture.

What Christian doctrines in the Creeds do I disagree with?

All is to be demonstrated from the whole counsel of God.

 

[renniks]

Hades is the name of the Greek god of the underworld and his abode. The Roman equivalent is Pluto. I have to wonder a little about the reality of a place that's named after places from pagan mythology.

Is that why Jesu confirmed it exists because it's a pagan myth? Besides, I thought UR's didn't deny hell, they just consider it a temporary destination for those who need to be purged of their unbelief.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Is that why Jesu confirmed it exists because it's a pagan myth? Besides, I thought UR's didn't deny hell, they just consider it a temporary destination for those who need to be purged of their unbelief.

I was just pointing out a bit of irony. People say "Hell (or Hades) is a real place". But, no, technically that's a mythological place. Since Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, I have to wonder what word he actually used. In some areas the word used is Gehenna, which fits in with the language of the place. But in other places it's Hades, which doesn't. Unless it had become part of the vernacular, which I suppose is entirely possible.

 

[Ceallaigh]

What Christian doctrines in the Creeds do I disagree with?

I have no idea what Christian doctrines you disagree with. But if you're like the rest of us, there has to be a few.

In looking through the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, the only mention of hell is "He descended into Hell".

All is to be demonstrated from the whole counsel of God.

Which means what exactly?

 

[renniks]

I was just pointing out a bit of irony. People say "Hell (or Hades) is a real place". But, no, technically that's a mythological place. Since Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, I have to wonder what word he actually used. In some areas the word used is Gehenna, which fits in with the language of the place. But in other places it's Hades, which doesn't. Unless it had become part of the vernacular, which I suppose is entirely possible.

What's the difference what name you use? It's still a place of punishment, biblically.

 

[Clare73]

I have no idea what Christian doctrines you disagree with. But if you're like the rest of us, there has to be a few.

In looking through the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, the only mention of hell is "He descended into Hell".

Which means what exactly?

Everything has to be considered, not just the verses that are in question, with the primary rule being: God's word does not contradict itself, so we are not free to divide the word of God in a way that is contradictory, we must rightly divide it (1 Timothy 2:15).

 

[Saint Steven]

The way I remember it is you die, you stand before the white throne judgement, your name isn't found in the Lamb's book of life, an angel hurls you into the lake of fire.

That's the way I remember it too. But someone (an SDA) challenged me to come up with a scripture reference for angels tossing us in. I couldn't find it. Where did I get that idea? ??? - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Well it might or might not represent Israel, but it doesn't change the reality of Hades.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there is no realm of the dead.

 

[Saint Steven]

In other words if you don't believe in eternal torment, you'll burn in hell forever.

It's the unforgivable sin against Damnationism.

 

[Saint Steven]

What's the difference what name you use? It's still a place of punishment, biblically.

Punishment, or correction?

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[renniks]

Punishment, or correction?

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

You are very selective.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Jude 1:7

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Everything has to be considered, not just the verses that are questionable, with the primary rule being: God's word does not contradict itself, so we are not free to divide the word of God in a way that is contradictory, we must rightly divide it (1 Timothy 2:15).

That's a very well known verse that Christians use against each other all the time, when they hold differing doctrines. It's like "I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard one Christian accuse the other of not rightly dividing the word". As far as people who hold to universal redemption are concerned, you're the one who's not rightly dividing the word, is not taking the whole message of the Bible into account, does not have a correct perspective regarding the nature of God, doesn't understand Greek properly etc etc.

 

[Ceallaigh]

.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You are very selective.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Jude 1:7

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Looks like you're selective too. And only two of those contain the word fire.

The first one describes the kind of death the last one does. Those of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced death via burning sulfur and fire, but is that fire actually eternal? Are those places still burning?

 

[Ceallaigh]

What's the difference what name you use? It's still a place of punishment, biblically.

How would you feel about Heaven being called Olympus or Valhalla?

 

[Saint Steven]

You are very selective.

Couldn't I say the same about you? You selected three verses that support your view. One of three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.

So, what is your accompanying view of the Bible? Based on your selection, what does that say the Bible is about? God's plan to punish sinners?

And what does that say about God? That we have been born into a world created by an angry cosmic tyrant that has it in for us?

 

[Saint Steven]

The first one describes the kind of death the last one does. Those of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced death via burning sulfur and fire, but is that fire actually eternal? Are those places still burning?

This is a rather long but interesting citation about the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom.

The bit about Edom is most interesting. It discusses the use of exaggerated language (to make a point) in biblical literature. Meaning, it is not to be taken literally.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire


Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Is that why Jesu confirmed it exists because it's a pagan myth? Besides, I thought UR's didn't deny hell, they just consider it a temporary destination for those who need to be purged of their unbelief.

Gehenna is never mentioned in the OT, except for the references to the Valley de Ge'Hinnom.

So where did it come from, so as to deserve so much attention, and become the bane of Christian thinking for 2,000+ years?

Well, it could only have developed as part of the 'oral tradition'. And that's mainly the Pharisees, whom Jesus spends much of his ministry rebuking for their hypocrisies. So could it be that the Pharisees weaponised Gehenna, they elevated it to the status of burning eternal hell for political purposes? I only see Jesus redeeming the concept, saving mankind from the vicious political lie. He surely doesn't deny Gehenna, but always qualifies its use with reassurances to the disciples that God's purpose and motives are good. So Gehenna has a restorative purpose, it's the place where God resets spiritual bones and bangs stubborn enemies' heads together.

So don't fall for the Pharisees' version of it, because it slanders God's holy name and paints Him as a monster. It's also paganised and worldly. God is much higher than all that. Jesus is in the business of restoring faith, hope, love, beauty, wisdom and truth out of the gloom and doom of broken images.

 

[Saint Steven]

So Gehenna has a restorative purpose, it's the place where God resets spiritual bones and bangs stubborn enemies' heads together.

Sort of a recycling project. Making something fresh and new from all the broken bits.

 

[Saint Steven]

You are very selective.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Have you seen this?
It deals with the mistranslation of "eternal".

"Aionios", the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)