The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Clare73]

The argument isn't that there's no hell, but rather what hell is.

And, based on their view of God, there's contradiction in their view of hell as restorative.

God could just as easily give them the new birth to restore them, and according to the notions on which eternal damnation is rejected, God not simply giving them the new birth makes him unloving.

 

[Clare73]

In other words if you don't believe in eternal torment, you'll burn in hell forever.

No, I am saying to deny the NT revelation of eternal damnation means your view of God is incomplete, you don't apprehend or appreciate his justice, which is just as much his nature as his love is.

 

[Clare73]

Maybe I misunderstood. God gives a new heart but the giving is conditional on our surrender.

The issue is free will, not salvation through rebirth.

 

[Ceallaigh]

They overlooked searching the Scriptures to see how "eternal" is actually used in the NT,
as in the ones I presented to you in post #411, page 21.

The ones I know of are very familiar with what you posted. They're theologians and scholars in Koine Greek. They write published books on the subject, have read most books on the subject, and travel the world giving lectures.

 

[Clare73]

This escaped my notice at first. You say ad hominem and then accuse your brother in Christ of being ungodly. And of course it's not really his attitude towards the scriptures that's the issue, it's his attitude towards the viewpoint that you're maintaining. Which still isn't what I would call ungodly. It seems like maybe your refuge is in equating your view as being equal to scripture, so that anyone who disagrees with you, is actually going against scripture. Anyone who goes against your view on this is going against God. Arguing with you is tantamount to blasphemy. Forgive me if I'm getting it wrong, but that's kinda what it sounds like to me.

Another favorite refuge of the failed argument is reducing all simply to a personal "view" of Scripture, thereby never having to come under its authority.

God is not mocked.

 

[Clare73]

The ones I know of are very familiar with what you posted. They're theologians and scholars in Koine Greek. They write published books on the subject, have read most books on the subject, and travel the world giving lectures.

What is their response to the Scriptures I posted?

 

[Ceallaigh]

No, I am saying to deny the NT revelation of eternal damnation means your view of God is incomplete, you don't apprehend or appreciate his justice, which is just as much his nature as his love is.

Well I'm glad to hear it, because there are some who actually go that far. That said, many accuse many others of the same thing when it comes to doctrinal differences. I'm pretty sure you hold to views that other Christians call heresy. And if you're a Protestant, you're a heretic period as far as Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics are concerned.

 

[Ceallaigh]

What is their response to the Scriptures I posted?

You'll have to write them and find out. Or read their books. Or even listen to them on youtube.

 

[Clare73]

Going by Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 many say Jesus already emptied Hell.

Holy Toledo! Are you saying that is the case for no eternal damnation?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Another favorite refuge of the failed argument is reducing all simply to a personal "view" of Scripture, thereby never having to come under its authority.

God is not mocked.

No not a personal view. The three views of hell have existed for 2000 years.

No one is mocking God here. Cool it with that jazz.

 

[Clare73]

I've heard it said that the gnashing of teeth Jesus talks about is actually a sign of contempt. And it's used that way someplace else in the Bible "they gnashed their teeth at him" or something like that. I'll have to look for it.

Then I don't see any "restoration" in their future.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Holy Toledo! Are you saying that is the case for no eternal damnation?

No I'm saying there's three views of hell. One of them presents a case for eternal damnation. The idea that Jesus liberated hell based on those scriptures are literally Orthodox. There are many icons depicting it: CLICK

 

[Clare73]

No not a personal view. The three views of hell have existed for 2000 years.

No one is mocking God here. Cool it with that jazz.

So did salvation by works in the Old Covenant. . .but the NT now shows differently.

 

[Clare73]

No I'm saying there's three views of hell. One of them presents a case for eternal damnation. The idea that Jesus liberated hell based on those scriptures are literally Orthodox. There are many icons depicting it: CLICK

Wow. . .that's really weak.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Wow. . .that's really weak.

2000 years of Christian Orthodoxy is really weak? Okay, if you say so.

 

[Clare73]

2000 years of Christian Orthodoxy is really weak? Okay, if you say so.

If time proved anything, Buddhism, etc. would be truth.

 

[Clare73]

The familiar form pronouns give anything a nice sonorous and formal air, don't they?
The thing I really like is taking concepts that the Bible in no way hints at and using them as an overlay to interpret what the Bible actually says. The of the innate immortality of human beings is one of those. The nearesr thing I can see that seems to refer to it directly in Scripture is when the serpent tells Eve "thou shalt not surely die". Otherwise Scripture appears to be accept human mortality as axiomatic apart from the direct intervention of God.

The human body is not immortal.

I reckon there's enough ignorance and arrogance to go around in these discussions. How many people (naming no names, mind you)have elevated their own understandings of what they think Scripture "means" as equivalent to the Scripture itself. 'Tain't so.

Then all that remains is to demonstrate it from Scripture. Scripture is the authority for God's truth.

 

[Ceallaigh]

If time proved anything, Buddhism, etc. would be truth.

Well I don't know what else you want other than the entirety of Christian belief. BTW, the idea that Jesus liberated hell during the time between his crucifixion and resurrection, is not the case for no eternal damnation. I'm saying based on Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 many believe (have believed) that Jesus emptied hell back then. Back then isn't future events that will take place.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The human body is not immortal.
All simply has to be demonstrated from Scripture itself. Scripture is the authority for God's truth.

Christian doctrines, including all of the ones you disagree with, are determined from scripture. You can say "I speak God's truth!" But so can anyone who believes in a doctrine that you don't, because their doctrine is based on scripture.

 

[Clare73]

Well I don't know what else you want other than the entirety of Christian belief. BTW, the idea that Jesus liberated hell during the time between his crucifixion and resurrection,

Or did he liberate those in Romans 3:25 who were "in holding" in "Sheol" until Christ's atonement for their sin?

is not the case for no eternal damnation. I'm saying based on Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 many believe (have believed) that Jesus emptied hell back then. Back then isn't future events that will take place.