What do you think about the sacraments?

[renniks]

It's both.

No.


and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It's a symbol of what actually saves. Faith plus Christ.

 

[Not David]

No.


and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It's a symbol of what actually saves. Faith plus Christ.

Why don't you quote the previous verse that talks about the symbol?
"to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"

So the symbolism is not baptism but the waters of the flood

 

[Albion]

No, it says the pledge of a clear conscious saves you, not the water.

Neither water nor a clear conscience nor the sacrament of Baptism itself guarantees salvation, if that's what anyone is thinking. The sacrament, however, does forgive sin in addition to imparting Grace and marking the recipient as a member of Christ's church.

 

[Clare73]

Do you like them, do you oppose them? Share your opinion.

Well, baptism, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin, annointing the sick with oil and laying on of hands for authorization to pastor/teacher are all ordinances of the NT.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hi Paidiske, along with baptism and the Eucharist, most Lutherans also consider Confession and Absolution a sacrament; an arguement can also be made for Holy Orders, as it is through the Clergy that the sacraments are administered, and thus, esential in the delivery of grace. The Small Catechism says two. It is more of a matter of definition. Two, three, or four, the rest can be considered "sacramental acts". Most Lutheran theologians would define a sacrament as 1, being instituted by Jesus Christ; 2, contains physical elements (water, bread, wine, laying on of hands); 3, being a means of grace whereby sins are directly forgiven by God throgh their administration.

Indeed; I would also note that some Anglo Catholics including the Continuing Anglican Province of Christ the King in the US enumerate seven sacraments.

And some Orthodox enumerate more than seven sacred mysteries.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, baptism, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin, annointing the sick with oil and laying on of hands for authorization to pastor/teacher are all ordinances of the NT.

Indeed so.

I myself am strongly opposed to denominations like the Salvation Army which do not practice the sacraments.

 

[Llleopard]

Indeed so.

I myself am strongly opposed to denominations like the Salvation Army which do not practice the sacraments.

Then again, some of us are slightly bewildered by people in denominations who glorify ritual past any point where it is Christlike and judge us to be some kind of savages, without ever looking at our reasons with an open mind.

 

[Anthony2019]

I believe in all seven of the sacraments
- Baptism
- Eucharist
- Confirmation
- Sacrament of Reconciliation
- Holy Matrimony
- Ordination of Bishops, Priests and Deacons
- Anointing of the Sick

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe in all seven of the sacraments
- Baptism
- Eucharist
- Confirmation
- Sacrament of Reconciliation
- Holy Matrimony
- Ordination of Bishops, Priests and Deacons
- Anointing of the Sick

Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?

My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.

Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).

 

[HatGuy]

Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?

My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.

Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).

Wow, that's awesome - enjoy it!!

You guys are spoilt for choice

In South Africa, there are very few opportunities for this sort of thing - most churches do not even have their own buildings, and those that do are not built in any traditional style or are not liturgical.

To have an amazing church building close by - nevermind a good choir etc. - would be just awesome.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then again, some of us are slightly bewildered by people in denominations who glorify ritual past any point where it is Christlike and judge us to be some kind of savages, without ever looking at our reasons with an open mind.

Well, I don’t judge anyone to be savages based on their religion, Christian or otherwise, as that would be completely inappropriate for any Christian, and as a member of the clergy, a teaching elder, it would give the ruling elders in my congregational parish a very good reason to defrock me; but indeed, if I found myself judging people that way I would resign myself. A few years ago I had something of an epiphany and realized the major problem in our society is the general lack of forbearance, genuine tolerance* and forgiveness.

I also enjoy and respect many low church Protestant services, for example, the beautiful and distinctive liturgy of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and other Covenanting Presbyterians, and certain other denominations, who worship using a capella exclusive psalmody, or organ-accompanied exclusive psalmody. Attending one of their services is on my bucket list.

I do have a problem with some denominations such as some Quaker groups and the Salvation Army, which eschew Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, the Eucharistic meal of Holy Communion, despite these being very clearly commanded by our Lord and the Apostles and outlined as the principle means of being regenerated as Christians and of receiving forgiveness of sins and life everlasting (see 1 Corinthians 10-11). On the other hand, I have deep respect for the historical charitable successes of the Salvation Army; between 1997 and 2003 I donated 10% of my income to them, and in Victorian times, the Salvation Army did great things towards improving the condition of the desperately poor people of Southwark and other impoverished boroughs of London in the 19th century, where many people had to seek degrading and abusive accomodation in work houses just to survive. In this bleak environment the glory of bringing about the most good was shared between the Salvation Army and the high church Anglo Catholic segment of the Church of England (which did an incredible amount of good under clergy like Rev. Percy Dearmer, and which also suffered harassment from the authorities, with their presbyters frequently arrested or otherwise persecuted for wearing chasubles during Holy Communion, an abuse which only stopped in the Edwardian era).

Lastly, regarding whether or not liturgical Christianity is Christlike, I think all of the beautiful churches, whether low church or high church, that follow the Nicene Creed, are Christlike. In the specific case of liturgical churches, I would note however that the Christians persecuted by the Soviet Union and other Eastern Block Communist regimes consisted almost exclusively of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic churches, and the Christians persecuted in the Middle East consist predominantly of Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian, Anglican, Byzantine Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, Maronite Catholic, and Oriental Catholic Churches.

The largest numbers of casualties, closed parishes and incidents of ethnic cleansing have been experienced by the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church.

Aside from being victims of brutal persecution, these churches have a few other things in common, namely, that they were victims of the Turkish anti-Christian genocide in 1915, and they are all extremely liturgical churches with ancient hymns and worship services which date back 1500 years in some cases.

I would further argue that a simple Reformed church and a beautifully decorated Orthodox church with icons, incense and a beautifully vested bishop are both equally Christ-like. Churches with simple worship, like the one I pastor, provide reflection on the ministry of the god-man Jesus Christ during His incarnation, whereas churches with splendid liturgy, which I have served at in the past and hope to serve at in the future, call to mind the glory of the risen Lord who has ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the father. Both have a message.

 

[The Liturgist]

Wow, that's awesome - enjoy it!!

You guys are spoilt for choice

In South Africa, there are very few opportunities for this sort of thing - most churches do not even have their own buildings, and those that do are not built in any traditional style or are not liturgical.

To have an amazing church building close by - nevermind a good choir etc. - would be just awesome.

Aren’t there a number of Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches in South Africa? Also, my understanding was that while the Anglican Province of South Africa was relatively liberal, it was also fairly high church. Also, what about the Traditional Latin Mass? In my experience that has become fairly widespread since Sacrosanctum Concilium. When I visited some relatives in Burkina Faso, I spent a few days in Ghana, and was impressed by how Anglo Catholic the Anglican Church in Ghana was.

I have a very good South African friend who joined the Russian Orthodox Church but was raised in the Reformed Church. Perhaps if things are as bad as you say they are, we should go there and work with like minded South Africans to set up new churches with a focus on liturgical beauty.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?

My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.

Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).

A lofty goal!!! Unity in ceremony is one thing; unfortunately, unity in theology remains the road block.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You need to be saved by grace before taking the sacraments. Many are sick and die not being worthy of them.

“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.” 1 Corinthians 11:23–29 (KJV 1900)

You are correct, but a bit off topic here. What you state above is the main reason my and many other Churches; including Orthodox and Catholic practice closed communion. No such Biblical constraints on Baptism. Confession and Absolution require contrition/repentence.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Where does it even begin to suggest that? Jesus said, "This do in memory of me".

Our Lord also states "for the forgiveness of sins". You can not pick and choose what Scripture says; in the case of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution, all three are tied directly to promises of forgiveness of sins by our Lord Jesus Christ, in His own words, in Scripture. There is a memorial element in addition to the means of grace, but by denying that promise of grace is calling Jesus a liar.

 

[Dave L]

Our Lord also states "for the forgiveness of sins". You can not pick and choose what Scripture says; in the case of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution, all three are tied directly to promises of forgiveness of sins by our Lord Jesus Christ, in His own words, in Scripture. There is a memorial element in addition to the means of grace, but by denying that promise of grace is calling Jesus a liar.

So you think the sacraments are a "vending machine" like you have for candy bars? Jesus says they are a memorial instead.

“And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19 (KJV 1900)

 

[Anthony2019]

Beautiful. You also go to that very high church parish?

My dream is that some day we might live to see a reunion of high church Christians from Anglicanism, Lutheranism and some of the other denominations (including the high church Methodists, Moravians and Congregationalists; in the late 19th and early 20th century one of the most Anglo Catholic churches in the UK was the King’s Weigh House in the City of London, which was Congregationalist and used a beautiful liturgical service book called Devotional Services, composed by Fr. John Hunter, which was really on a par with the BCP in terms of beauty, and bits and pieces of it survive even in the liturgy of my former Congregational denomination, the UCC), together with the Eastern Orthodox, who have a Western Rite, the Oriental Orthodox, who used to have a Western Rite (in Sri Lanka), the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, the conservative Old Catholics (the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church), and in some manner, part or all of the Roman church, if the Roman church reverts its liturgy to a more traditional state or conducts the Novus Ordo Missae in a more consistently reverent and beautiful manner.

Because the Saturday services of my church are in the early afternoon, I get the pleasure of attending Saturday morning divine liturgies and Saturday evening Vespers / All Night Vigils at some of the Orthodox churches, and during the midweek I go to a said Evening Prayer and Holy Communion at a local high church Comtinuing Anglican church which has a real talent for liturgical beauty. Unfortunately, they do not have a church school and consequently, no boys choir (there are only a few good Anglican/Episcopalian boys choirs in the US, of which the best one I believe is St. Thomas Church on Park Avenue in Midtown Manhattan).

I saw a friend of mine in the street the other day. He asked me if I was going to the "Catholic church". I had to remind him that I was still part of the CofE, even though my parish church is very high church! I also like to go to our local Cathedral for their worship services, which are always very traditional, but I'm going to have to wait until it fully reopens again!

It would be interesting to read the service book you mentioned. I do love the BCP too - it's been very much part of my upbringing!

 

[Mountainmike]

Two, although it doesn't offend me terribly if people sometimes use the word to refer to other ceremonies that have been solemnized by the church and which are not in the same category as the "Sacraments of the Gospel."

At a theological level a sacrament is defined by the Catholic Church as “ ex opere operato” which signifies grace as a result of an action, rather than noting a grace already imparted.

In that context john20:23 is just such.
A choice then action resulting in the retain or forgive .
So the absolution is by that definition a sacrament.
It comes down to definitions.

I hadn’t realised till my discussion with @Paidiske that Anglicanism did this. Certainly not where I was, but it Anglicanism is far from rigid.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So you think the sacraments are a "vending machine" like you have for candy bars? Jesus says they are a memorial instead.

“And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19 (KJV 1900)

Not at all; you either don't read my posts (ttps://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-do-you-think-about-the-sacraments.8204895/page-3#post-75882053) or are just here to troll. A vending machine requires payment before dispensing goods. There is not way that we could ever afford the price, only the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient payment for the grace which is bestowed through the Gospel and the sacraments.

BTW, Jesus not only says that they are a memorial, but he also says this "is" my body; this "is" my blood given and shed for the remission of sins. This do as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. This is not only mentioned in the Gospels, but in the the Epistles as well.

Respectfully, if you hold up one part of Scripture that you like and deny the rest you are implying that God is a liar; that Christ is a liar. These are his words, not mine and certainly not yours.

 

[The Liturgist]

A lofty goal!!! Unity in ceremony is one thing; unfortunately, unity in theology remains the road block.

At the risk of sounding like a Pietist, I have come to a realization that the variance between the theological positions of the traditional liturgical-sacramental churches is very slight. All uphold the Nicene Creed, recognize that our Lord is fully human and fully divine without change, separation or confusion, make use of iconography to varying extents, believe in the sacraments as an important part of the economy of salvation, adhere to an amillenial eschatology, and believe in salvation by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.