The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

FutureAndAHope

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Hmm... the real question seems to be about God's omniscience. - lol
He knows everything, right?

Not at all:

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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That would equate to the vast majority being lost. Countless billions.

There is also the issue of "the elect" and predestination. Meaning that those who were NOT predestined "to life" were predestined to eternal conscious torment.

Predestination is not a truth. Everything is a choice, hence the fruit in the garden, with Adam and Eve.
 
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Saint Steven

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There you go again! :)
We should assume they believe what God's word says.
Are you calling an English translation of the Bible God's word? (none of which agree)

And playing the "God card". Shame on you. Trying to shut me down and win the debate? Nice try.
 
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Saint Steven

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@Saint Steven Are you annihilationist or a universalist?
Burn, baby burn.

Everyone going to hell should have two choices.
Original recipe, or extra crispy. - lol

Nope, definitely NOT an Annihilationist, nor a Damnationist.
 
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Saint Steven

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Not at all:

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
You can't be serious.
One of the main attributes of God is all-knowing.
(omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient...) Heard of that?

Saint Steven said:
Hmm... the real question seems to be about God's omniscience. - lol
He knows everything, right?
 
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Saint Steven

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Predestination is not a truth.
Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You can't be serious.
One of the main attributes of God is all-knowing.
(omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient...) Heard of that?

Saint Steven said:
Hmm... the real question seems to be about God's omniscience. - lol
He knows everything, right?

"Heard of that?" - yes, but it is not truth. The bible is truth. And the bible says God, repented, changed His mind, wish He had not created man.

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why would a God who planned, controlled everything, repent, or change His mind. Because He would have "known" about it.

As for all the words using "predestined", salvation was predestined, the act of salvation was predestined, not the people who would choose it.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
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Saint Steven

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Why would a God who planned, controlled everything, repent, or change His mind. Because He would have "known" about it.
Perhaps that OT story is not to be taken so literally? Just sayin'.

Do you really think God messed up on his original creation and had to start over? And then he still didn't get it right, so now he has to burn all the unbelievers? What a mess.
 
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Saint Steven

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As for all the words using "predestined", salvation was predestined, the act of salvation was predestined, not the people who would choose it.
Have you heard of the elect? (another biblical untruth I suppose)
 
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Ceallaigh

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Yes I'm serious. God is the focus of scripture, who He is, what He is doing and will do. You won't know all there is to know about the Lord by fixing your eyes upon men.

Scripture is about God's relationship with humankind. To the point where God became humankind.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The elect are those who believe.

I believe he was referring to Calvinism, which teaches that only a preselected few called the elect will be able to believe, and the rest, which is most, were preselected to be tormented for eternity.
 
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Ceallaigh

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There you go again! :)
We should assume they believe what God's word says.

I believe what God's word says, I'm just not so sure that it actually says most of mankind will be tormented forever, or if that was something invented by the Roman Empire as a means of controlling the population.
 
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sawdust

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Well, try fixing your eyes on God sometime. (He's invisible - lol)

We were talking about scripture which, is not invisible.

Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Christ is the Word made flesh, scripture is the record of Him.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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You do realize that is Paul you are talking about, right? (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11;
Hebrews 10:38)
The faith that saved was not faith in the Law, in the OT it was faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5), and in the NT it is faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise, Galatians 3:16).

No one was saved by the Law, for "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10)
That is the authoritative teaching of the apostle who received his understanding from Jesus Christ personally,
in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5).

1. Paul never debunked The Law and the Old Testament so, no I am not talking about Paul.

In fact, if you are conversant with Paul's teaching you would know that He quoted The Law to support things he said. 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:18 are examples.

2. I did not intimate, as far as I am aware, that The Law saved anybody except to say that, these who debunk anything in the Old Testament concluding that it is all law actually live by it and, by their own opinion, are saved by The Law.

Yes I agree with your statement that it was not faith in The Law that saved them but in Jesus Christ who was the promise.

I am not advocating salvation by The Law for I am perfectly aware that it came by Christ. I was saved without The Law. I am merely revealing that those who shout "legalism" at anyone who appeals to the Old Testament need to take care for they, though unwittingly perhaps, are also appealing to it.

Paul did not rely on The Law for his salvation but he knew that God spake by it and therefore it was good.
 
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sawdust

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Scripture is about God's relationship with humankind. To the point where God became humankind.

Sounds like one of those "warm fuzzies" men like to tell themselves as an ego boost to me. ;)

The Lord Jesus Christ has always been fully God and fully human, eternally begotten of the Father. All things were created through, by and for Him. He did not become human so He could share in our life, He has both natures so we can share in His life. It is through His humanity that He is able to fully explain God to us.

At least you got the first four words right ... "Scripture is about God" :)
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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So the sin of first Adam automatically condemns everyone. But the atonement of the second Adam, who's actually God, is limited.



That sounds like Satan's plan will be more successful.

Just read your Bible, mate.

Jesus said,

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

If you don't believe me, believe him for he not only speaks the truth, he is the truth.

Satan is totally unsuccessful for his ambition and aim was to replace God. He has not and cannot do that.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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The "true" gospel?
The "true" gospel says, believe or burn? That's not a choice, that is spiritual extortion. Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. An offer you can't refuse.

Tell me, if I was unwittingly rushing headlong toward a cliff and you warned me of the danger, would that make you a gangster godfather? If I were clinging desperately to that cliff and you offered me your hand to safety, would that make you a gangster godfather?

Man's plight is certain, through Christ, God offers a helping hand. Will you take it?
 
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