The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

aiki

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Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Mark 9:49
49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.


A difficult verse, no doubt. And so, it has been the source of much speculation and theorizing. I recall Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and the words of the prophet in Malachi 3:2, as you have. The two sections of Scripture shed some useful light, I think, on what Jesus was saying. It also helps to know something of the Levitical practices concerning sacrifices. The JFB Bible Commentary explains:

"The reference to salting the sacrifice is of course to that maxim of the Levitical law, that every acceptable sacrifice must be sprinkled with salt, to express symbolically its soundness, sweetness, wholesomeness, acceptability. But as it had to be roasted first, we have here the further idea of a salting with fire. In this case, "every sacrifice," in the next clause, will mean, "Every one who would be found an acceptable offering to God"; and thus the whole verse may perhaps be paraphrased as follows: "Every disciple of Mine shall have a fiery trial to undergo, and everyone who would be found an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable and well-pleasing to God, must have such a salting, like the Levitical sacrifices."
(A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments - Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown).
 
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renniks

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Not #4 though. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:
That is already #1 or #2 on the list. What happens to those who refuse? (incinerated, right?)
Well, I don't like your list.
I think it assumes things about people that believe in hell that aren't correct.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do we all bear the consequences of our choices? The saved don't. ...
That's a great point. And I think it captures the essence of what God is about.

Why would the story of humankind end anywhere but there? That God would wipe away every tear. Make everything right. Return to the beginning. Full circle.

I suppose I'll be accused of emotionalism by those who want the most violent end to all things. A crash and burn for the whole mess. (sigh)
 
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Saint Steven

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Well, I don't like your list.
I think it assumes things about people that believe in hell that aren't correct.
What should we assume about people that believe in hell? (they don't know any better? - LOL)
 
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public hermit

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Why would the story of humankind end anywhere but there? That God would wipe away every tear. Make everything right. Return to the beginning. Full circle

Agreed. That would be the most beautiful consummation. I don't care what people call me, lol. ;)
 
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chad kincham

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Matthew 25:46 speaks of "everlasting punishment" but, as a number of Bible scholars have observed, punishment that is not experienced is not punishment. Annihilation, which ends conscious existence, then, avoids punishment, which requires consciousness. One cannot punish a rock, or a broom, or a stump; one can only punish what is conscious, sentient and self-aware.



"Destroyed" doesn't always mean "eradicated" in Scripture, just as "death" doesn't always mean the total end of the existence of a living thing. Vine's Bible Expository Dictionary notes of "apollumi" (Greek term rendered "destroy" in Matthew 10:28):

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wineskins (Luke 5:37); of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution (Luke 15:4, 6) etc.; the lost son (Luke 15:24); of the perishing of food (John 6:27); of gold (1 Peter 1:7). So of persons..." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 302)

We read in the NT of physically dead people who speak, see and hear, and have a discernible, apparently material form that can suffer pain and be clothed. (Luke 16:23-24; Matthew 17:2-3; Revelation 6:9-11) In light of this, and the use of "apollumi" in the NT as explained above, it is difficult to think that Matthew 10:28 means that only an immaterial spirit being will suffer in hell.

Except Revelation says those in the lake have continued consciousness, as they have no rest DAY OR NIGHT and they are tormented FOREVER.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The fact is there is a place of conscious punishment you only have to read the story of Lazarus and the beggar to know that.

The real question is did God "plan", to destroy the vast majority of people in hell. Firstly the answer is "no", God did not know how people would react to Him. As we see in Genisis:

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God has revealed His nature to us through His Son, one of redemption, and of mercy. Yet it is a mercy that must be received. Unfortunately, many refuse His redemptive act:

John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

As for numbers of people who perish, we don't really know, but the bible does say:

Mat 7:12-14 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We see firstly in Mat 7:12 God's nature: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Then we see that most reject this act, or nature. However because the nature of God is so good, it is often hard to reconcile the "few" find it. I would hope this is not a statistical statement, of the ones inheriting life. But it seems to be. If it is that, then we need to know it is not a lack of mercy on God's part, but a lack of love on man's. God can not do more than the cross. We just need to be grateful and thankful that we have the sight to see His redemption.
 
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Saint Steven

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The real question is did God "plan", to destroy the vast majority of people in hell. Firstly the answer is "no", God did not know how people would react to Him. ...
Hmm... the real question seems to be about God's omniscience. - lol
He knows everything, right?
 
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sawdust

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The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

I'm going with the "OR" (in the title) ... The Bible is about proving God is Holy and right. The redemption of mankind is only a part of the story and men are not the focus of scripture.
 
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Saint Steven

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As for numbers of people who perish, we don't really know, but the bible does say:

Mat 7:12-14 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
That would equate to the vast majority being lost. Countless billions.

There is also the issue of "the elect" and predestination. Meaning that those who were NOT predestined "to life" were predestined to eternal conscious torment.
 
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Saint Steven

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Then we see that most reject this act, or nature. However because the nature of God is so good, it is often hard to reconcile the "few" find it. I would hope this is not a statistical statement, of the ones inheriting life. But it seems to be. If it is that, then we need to know it is not a lack of mercy on God's part, but a lack of love on man's. God can not do more than the cross. We just need to be grateful and thankful that we have the sight to see His redemption.
Right. Blame the victims.
 
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Ceallaigh

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That the damned are conscious day and night forever in the lake of fire is biblical fact.

It’s also fact that soul and body are destroyed in hell, and a fact that the spirit is all that’s left of our triune being to exist in the lake of fire.

How can they be conscious day and night, when Revelation says there will be no more day and night?
 
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Ceallaigh

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The way I see it, it is simply a matter of understanding the time duration.

I thought that's what the forever part was for. It's a contradiction in letteral terms. But not so much in figurative terms.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Well, I don't like your list.
I think it assumes things about people that believe in hell that aren't correct.

It doesn't really assume it, that's what it's actually saying.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm going with the "OR" (in the title) ... The Bible is about proving God is Holy and right. The redemption of mankind is only a part of the story and men are not the focus of scripture.
Humankind is not the focus of scripture? Are you serious?
 
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sawdust

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Humankind is not the focus of scripture? Are you serious?

Yes I'm serious. God is the focus of scripture, who He is, what He is doing and will do. You won't know all there is to know about the Lord by fixing your eyes upon men.
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes I'm serious. God is the focus of scripture, who He is, what He is doing and will do. You won't know all there is to know about the Lord by fixing your eyes upon men.
Well, try fixing your eyes on God sometime. (He's invisible - lol)
 
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