A woman's faith

KaylaI

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:
 

adderbolt

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Women are more likely to see the value of a local church. Women are more intelligent and better able to express ideas of faith and doctrine. But what does God's word instruct as to the gender of pastors and elders? After all that is the key to this 'locked door' ...
 
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disciple Clint

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:
I am not aware of any Scripture that specifically states that a woman cannot be a priest or pastor. I would be interested to know what Scriptures he quoted. It is true that Jesus was a man and His disciples were male but there were female judges in the O.T. Mary Magdalen was a follower of Jesus and went on to have a ministry in France. The only issue I ever had with a woman priest was because she insisted on people calling her father. I have no idea what denomination she was but she did dress in traditional priest garb.
 
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public hermit

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He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man

Welcome. :)

I don't think the idea that Jesus had no women disciples holds up. When Mary sat at Jesus's feet, while Martha was busy getting things ready, she was clearly functioning as a disciple. She was learning from the Teacher, which Jesus said was the better part. Jesus had a number of women disciples, some of whom supported Jesus and his followers. Jesus had more than just twelve disciples (for instance, he sends out seventy in Luke's gospel). John's gospel doesn't even name the 12 (unlike the synoptics).

"Soon afterwards he went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him, as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward Chuza, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their resources." Luke 8:1-3
 
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NomNomPizza

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:

Yea women are forbidden to have any authority over men and to even speak or teach in church , they can teach younger women after church service.

1)
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

2)A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
 
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Strong in Him

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Yea women are forbidden to have any authority over men and to even speak or teach in church ,

No they aren't.
This has been the subject of many threads on CF, and the debate still goes on. There are lots of women who testify that God called them to ordination and preaching the Gospel. So far, the only "answer" to this has been along the lines of "well they're deluded/disobedient/lying/feminists who care more about themselves than Scripture - and we're in end times, so what do you expect?"

Women followed Jesus, told others about him and a woman was the first witness to the resurrection. That wasn't a coincidence; Jesus planned it that way. Women were also active in the early church.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:
First of all Catholicism believes in another Jesus. Their Jesus lives in a eucharist. Jesus had women disciples. what is a disciple? A personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles.
Romans 16:1-2 1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the LORD in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
Romans 16:3 3Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.
 
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trophy33

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Women are more intelligent and better able to express ideas of faith and doctrine.
No.

Women are better caretakers, though. Men are better in leadership. Thats how we cooperated for thousands of years, its a natural order of things.
 
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No.

Women are better caretakers, though. Men are better in leadership.

Some men might be.
It depends on the man, or woman, and on the gifts they have been given. Deborah was judge over all Israel - Barak wouldn't even obey God's word unless Deborah went with him.
 
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trophy33

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Some men might be.
It depends on the man, or woman, and on the gifts they have been given. Deborah was judge over all Israel - Barak wouldn't even obey God's word unless Deborah went with him.
Deborah vs:
Adam
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Joshua
Gideon
Samson
David
Salomon
Jesus
12 apostles
And dozens of other biblical male leaders.

----

What you are doing is taking some exception and making it equal to the overhelming majority of cases.
 
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Strong in Him

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Deborah vs:
Adam
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Joshua
Gideon
Samson
David
Salomon
Jesus
12 apostles
And dozens of other biblical male leaders.

----

What you are doing is taking some exception and making it equal to the overhelming majority of cases.

No, what I'm doing is showing you that there has been a woman in leadership, over men - appointed by God.
It doesn't matter if it was only one; I never said the majority of leaders were women. But if God allowed and appointed one, he cannot have forbidden women to be in this position.
So it is not correct for people to say that women were never to be in leadership with any kind of authority over men, and that that was a command from God. Which is what some people say when discussing this verse - that God has forbidden women to have authority over men.

Not that anyone has ever explained what "have authority over" means - not forgetting that the word actually means to grab, or violently snatch, authority.
Maybe you go to a different kind of church, but my minister does not have authority over me. He doesn't tell me what to wear, where to live, what job to have, how much to give to charity, which house groups I should belong to etc etc. I guess if I were to drug him, kidnap him, tie him up and then announce that I was the leader of the church and everyone had to listen to me, there would be good cause for concern. But that's not happening and is never going to.
 
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Eloy Craft

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So it is not correct for people to say that women were never to be in leadership with any kind of authority over men, and that that was a command from God. Which is what some people say when discussing this verse - that God has forbidden women to have authority over men.
I think that's a good point. OTOH even a woman raised up by God like that can't be a father nor have authority over a father's children. Jesus structured His Church as a family. A priest, as were the apostles, is a father figure. Jesus is a bridegroom uniting the human family as a husband and father. Likewise a man can't be a mother which has it's own dignity equal or greater than a father.
 
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Clare73

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No they aren't.
This has been the subject of many threads on CF, and the debate still goes on.
There are lots of women who testify that God called them to ordination and preaching the Gospel.
All spirits are not from God (1 John 4:1) we must distinguish between spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10) by testing them.

The first test which must be applied to anything personal we believe is from God is the Scriptures (Acts 17:10-11; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:21), for God does not contradict his own word.
And Scripture clearly states that women are not to teach or to have authority over a man in the Church (1 Timothy 2:12-14), which necessarily excludes them from pastors and teachers.
Deacons are worker assistants in the church, and do not have positions of authority over men.

The word of God couldn't be clearer, removing all ambiguity and doubt on this point, the mandate being grounded in God's unchanging creation order, not in the current culture, where all objections to it are grounded.

The only issues remaining are faith and obedience.
So far, the only "answer" to this has been along the lines of "well they're deluded/disobedient/lying/feminists who care more about themselves than Scripture - and we're in end times, so what do you expect?"

Women followed Jesus, told others about him and a woman was the first witness to the resurrection. That wasn't a coincidence; Jesus planned it that way. Women were also active in the early church.
All the born again are disciples of Christ, witness for Christ, work for Christ.
None of that requires authority over a man in the church.
 
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All spirits are not from God (1 John 4:1) we must distinguish between spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10) by testing them.

The first test which must be applied to anything personal we believe is from God is the Scriptures (Acts 17:10-11; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:21), for God does not contradict his own word.
And Scripture clearly states that women are not to teach or to have authority over a man in the Church (1 Timothy 2:12-14), which necessarily excludes them from pastors and teachers.
Deacons are worker assistants in the church, and do not have positions of authority over men.

The word of God couldn't be clearer, removing all ambiguity and doubt on this point, the mandate being grounded in God's unchanging creation order, not in the current culture, where all objections to it are grounded.

The only issues remaining are faith and obedience.
All the born again are disciples of Christ, witness for Christ, work for Christ.
None of that requires authority over a man in the church.
"God's unchanging creation order” petting zoo theology to match the ostrich theology of most.
 
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Strong in Him

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All spirits are not from God (1 John 4:1) we must distinguish between spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10) by testing them.

And it is the church and clergy who test that call.

The first test which must be applied to anything personal we believe is from God is the Scriptures (Acts 17:10-11; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:21), for God does not contradict his own word.
And Scripture clearly states that women are not to teach or to have authority over a man

Well God contradicted, and broke, his own word then, because he appointed Deborah to be judge over the whole nation. She was also a prophetess - not only did she sort out men's disputes, she gave them God's word.
Huldah was also a prophetess who gave God's word to men - in fact the male priests deliberately went to consult her. The King obeyed what the Lord had said through a woman, and the nation turned back to God.
Mary Magdalen was chosen to be the first witness to the resurrection. She was told to go into a roomful of men - who were hiding in fear - tell them the Good News and given them a message from the risen Christ.
Priscilla taught Apollos; it doesn't matter that she was with her husband, she was still a woman who taught.

Deacons do not have positions of authority over men. They are worker assistants in the church.

The word that is sometimes translated "Deacon" can also be translated as "Minister" or "servant". Jesus was described in this way; so was Paul - so was Phoebe.
Deacons today are ordained.

The word of God couldn't be clearer, removing all ambiguity and doubt on this point, the mandate being grounded in God's unchanging creation order, not in the current culture, where all objections to it are grounded.

It could be a lot clearer.
"I, the Lord, forbid all women everywhere, in every age and culture, from holding, or even seeking, the role of Minister" - THAT would be clear. That command would also have been taught by Jesus, who showed us God's will, and he would have led by example and not chosen, or allowed, women to do anything. It would also have been repeated by Paul in ALL his letters, as well as by James, Peter and John who were Jesus' disciples and wanted people to know what Jesus taught. Instead, Jesus revealed to a woman that he was the Messiah and allowed her to go back to her town and tell all the men. He deliberately planned for a woman to be the first witness of his resurrection.
The early church had no problem with women - they met in women's houses, allowed women to pray and prophesy and Paul had many female co-workers. Paul himself told women HOW they should prophesy in church; i.e with their heads covered in submission. Why would he have done that if he did not believe women could speak in church?

The only issues remaining are faith and obedience.

If a woman believes that God has called her to be a preacher or ordained Minister; yes, the only option is obedience.
Many women do believe that - and many men have accepted, agreed with and tested their calling.

All the born again are disciples of Christ, witness for Christ, work for Christ.
None of that requires authority over a man in the church.

Define, "authority over a man"; what does that look like?

ALL authority belongs to God, he can give it to whoever he wishes. The church simply recognises that God calls women, equips them to be teachers and Pastors, Ephesians 4:11, and recognises his authority and call in their lives.
 
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Hello, I am a new member to the forum but have read the posts for a long time and have found them very useful. I wondered if someone might be able to help me with this. Last week, I was speaking to a Catholic friend who argued that women should not be priests or deacons and he had some very persuasive arguments. He was saying how there were no women disciples and Jesus was a man. I am Christian and a woman and I don't agree with him. I think we
are all God's children and some of the best guidance I have received has been from women. What at do you think? What would you have said? He is very devout and was able to quote a lot of scripture and although I don't think I agree with him, it was difficult for me to express my thoughts. Really interested to see what people think.:help:

There were like being pointed out lots of women following Jesus. As we look historically the Church Fathers were if I get it right, all men. That could mean something. But if a woman is called by God to be a pastor, who am I to go against that? I much rather have a good female pastor than a bad one, that is male. But I've never been that "traditional" either.
 
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Clare73

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Some men might be.
It depends on the man, or woman, and on the gifts they have been given. Deborah was judge over all Israel - Barak wouldn't even obey God's word unless Deborah went with him.
The first rule in rightly dividing the word of God (2 Timothy 2:15) is not to set Scripture against itself, but to reconcile Scripture to itself.

You are errantly setting Deborah against the NT order.

The OT Deborah is not a parallel of the NT pastor/teacher. She had no authority in the synagogue.

Before Israel had no leader/governor/king to rule and govern it in keeping with God's law, judges were raised up by God, just as prophets are raised up by God, and neither enjoying any legal status by law. Israel at that time was governed only by the laws given at Sinai, and things "weren't going well." Deborah, a prophet, was raised up by God to deliver Israel from her enemies, whom the people chose to follow, as were the other judges.

There is no Biblical warrant for using Deborah to refute the NT order given in 2 Timothy 2:15.
 
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Clare73

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No, what I'm doing is showing you that
there has been a womodan in leadership, over men - appointed by God.
Not in the synagogue or church, which is the issue.
It doesn't matter if it was only one; I never said the majority of leaders were women. But if God allowed and appointed one, he cannot have forbidden women to be in this position.
So it is not correct for people to say that women were never to be in leadership with any kind of authority over men, and that that was a command from God. Which is what some people say when discussing this verse - that God has forbidden women to have authority over men.

Not that anyone has ever explained what "have authority over" means - not forgetting that the word actually means to grab, or violently snatch, authority.
Maybe you go to a different kind of church, but my minister does not have authority over me. He doesn't tell me what to wear, where to live, what job to have, how much to give to charity, which house groups I should belong to etc etc. I guess if I were to drug him, kidnap him, tie him up and then announce that I was the leader of the church and everyone had to listen to me, there would be good cause for concern. But that's not happening and is never going to.
 
Upvote 0