The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Saint Steven

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Death is a choice.
Deuteronomy 30:
15
See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep
His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship
other gods and serve them,
18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling
to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land
which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
So, your doctrine of the final judgment comes from Deuteronomy?

Did Jesus succeed, or fail, in the purpose for which he was sent? Verse below.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
 
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Saint Steven

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This is called a false dichotomy. It offers only two options though there are others.
Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind
 
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aiki

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I'm not angry at God. I'm angry at the church that gave us a bogus view of God. A caricature that resembles an angry volcano god.

But, this is itself a caricature of the God many believers see described in Scripture: A God who is both merciful and wrathful, just and holy, punishing the guilty, but gracious and loving, making a way for any who will take it to escape His punishment. God is not the monolithic, either-or character you seem to want to make Him. He is not the "angry volcano god" you despise, nor is He the God you want, who saves everybody regardless of what they have done or desire. God is more complex, more sophisticated, than either of these caricatures. He is the God who killed all but Noah and his family in the Great Flood, and burned to ash the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, who killed the firstborn of Egypt in the Exodus, and sent His Chosen People as His arm of judgment upon various pagan nations who'd set themselves as enemies of the Israelites, commanding His people to destroy these nations, man, woman and child. And He is also the God who in love and mercy sent His only Son to atone for the sins of mankind and through this atonement make a way - albeit a narrow, solitary one - for wicked people deserving of hell to be reconciled to Himself. It may be inconvenient; it may be frustrating; it may require setting aside the God you want for the God that is; but the God of the Bible is not an "angry volcano god" nor is He the God who gives everyone a "get out of hell free" card.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Romans 2:5-11
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.


Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Psalm 1:5-6
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
 
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NomNomPizza

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The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
1 2 and 3 seem all incorrect to me
Like people debate between these but they are all wrong to begin with
 
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aiki

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Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

But look at your first option: It assumes that the "genocide of the majority of humankind" was planned, ordained and/or orchestrated by God. But this assumes a deterministic view of things, it seems to me, that no Christian is at all obliged to accept. God knows what freely-choosing people will do, and orders His plans accordingly, but this foreknowledge does not necessitate causation. And, as I pointed out, God cannot be guilty of the human evil of genocide. It is a category error to assign to God a sin of humanity. God is not a human; not even close. His role as Creator confers upon Him unique prerogatives no human can claim, one of which is the right to do with the universe and all that it contains exactly as He pleases, giving and taking life as He wills. Your first option, then, is, as far as I'm concerned, so flawed as to be no proper option at all.

The second option you put forward also suffers from a sort of Strawman flavor. As well, it appears to assume a deterministic state of affairs, as your first option does.

Your third option cannot be synthesized with all that God's word says on the matter of salvation and final judgment.

And so, as I said, you offer no option that properly characterizes the view I hold of God's redemptive plan as I encounter it in Scripture.
 
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Mr. M

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So, your doctrine of the final judgment comes from Deuteronomy?

Did Jesus succeed, or fail, in the purpose for which he was sent? Verse below.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
All your verse proves is that there is no other Savior.
Your conclusions are faulty,
your indoctrination, obvious.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.


Deuteronomy was included because God has always demanded a choice to be made, even by
Christ Himself. Hence, the statement in blue "Death is a choice", as laid out repeatedly in the
narrative of scripture.

Yehoshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom you
will serve
; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or
the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other,
or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
 
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Saint Steven

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A God who is both merciful and wrathful, just and holy, punishing the guilty, but gracious and loving, making a way for any who will take it to escape His punishment.
So, Jesus died to save us from God?
 
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Saint Steven

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But look at your first option: It assumes that the "genocide of the majority of humankind" was planned, ordained and/or orchestrated by God.
Are you claiming it wasn't?

Saint Steven said:
Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind
 
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Saint Steven

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All your verse proves is that there is no other Savior.
Your conclusions are faulty,
your indoctrination, obvious.
Have you ever seen this?

Gospel in Chairs: A Beautiful Gospel 2015 Brad Jersak
Brad Jersak's 2015 version of the Gospel in Chairs, originally composed by Fr. Anthony Carbo and borrowed by others like Steve Robinson and Brian Zahnd (who retitled it 'The Beautiful Gospel').
 
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Mr. M

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Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind
Remnant Theology is well grounded in scripture, and foreshadowed in many ways throughout.
You ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Annihilation is just a dramatic way of saying Death.
Everlasting life is not your birthright, it is an inheritance gained by adoption through Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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His role as Creator confers upon Him unique prerogatives no human can claim, one of which is the right to do with the universe and all that it contains exactly as He pleases, giving and taking life as He wills.
Kind of like the playground bully of the universe? That's flattering. (slanderous)
 
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Saint Steven

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No, God incarnate died to save us from ourselves and the just punishment our wickedness deserves.
Right. Blame the victims. I have heard that one before.

Saint Steven said:
So, Jesus died to save us from God?
 
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Jake Arsenal

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Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?

Let's avoid presuppositions as to the overall purpose of scripture. Is there an underlying theme to all of scripture? Is there a particular phrase or idea that is repeated throughout the entirety of scripture?

Jeremiah 9:6 Their dwelling place is in the midst of deceit;
Through deceit they refuse to know Me, says the Lord.

Jeremiah 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well.
Was this not to know Me? says the Lord.

Jeremiah 24:7 Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord;
and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me
with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.


Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

2 Peter 3:18 Grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.


Here is a short list of scriptures which express something the Author wants us to know:
Exodus 6:7, Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:17, Exodus 8:22, Exodus 10:2, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:18, Exodus 16:12, Exodus 29:46, Exodus 31:13, Deuteronomy 29:6, 1 Kings 20:13, 1 Kings 20:28, Isaiah 49:23, Isaiah 60:16, Ezekiel 6:7, Ezekiel 6:10, Ezekiel 6:13, Ezekiel 6:14, Ezekiel 7:4, Ezekiel 7:9, Ezekiel 7:27, Ezekiel 11:10, Ezekiel 11:12, Ezekiel 12:15, Ezekiel 12:16, Ezekiel 12:20, Ezekiel 13:9, Ezekiel 13:14, Ezekiel 13:21, Ezekiel 13:23, Ezekiel 14:8, Ezekiel 15:7, Ezekiel 16:62, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:26, Ezekiel 20:38, Ezekiel 20:42, Ezekiel 20:44, Ezekiel 22:16, Ezekiel 23:49, Ezekiel 24:24, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 25:5, Ezekiel 25:7, Ezekiel 25:11, Ezekiel 25:17, Ezekiel 26:6, Ezekiel 28:22, Ezekiel 28:23, Ezekiel 28:24, Ezekiel 28:26, Ezekiel 29:6, Ezekiel 29:9, Ezekiel 29:16, Ezekiel 29:21, Ezekiel 30:8, Ezekiel 30:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Ezekiel 30:26, Ezekiel 32:15, Ezekiel 33:29, Ezekiel 34:27, Ezekiel 34:30, Ezekiel 35:4, Ezekiel 35:9, Ezekiel 35:12, Ezekiel 35:15, Ezekiel 36:11, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 36:38, Ezekiel 37:6, Ezekiel 37:13, Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:6, Ezekiel 39:7, Ezekiel 39:22, Ezekiel 39:28, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:17, etc. (know that I am the Lord)
 
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Saint Steven

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Remnant Theology is well grounded in scripture, and foreshadowed in many ways throughout.
You ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Annihilation is just a dramatic way of saying Death.
Everlasting life is not your birthright, it is an inheritance gained by adoption through Christ.
So, Jesus died to save us from God?
 
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Saint Steven

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Let's avoid presuppositions as to the overall purpose of scripture.
Did you really write that? (seems so)

What is the Bible?
What is the purpose of the Bible?
Why are these questions taboo?
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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I'm not saying that UR is obviously true. I'm saying 1) some Christians think the scriptures capture everything that is possible for God, and 2) some Christian can't stand the idea that God would be merciful to anyone outside their group.

As to 1), do you have other sources of information about God and His possibilities beside Scripture? So far Nature has been silent on the fate of unbelievers.

As to 2), you can take it to the bank that sentiment resides in every single fallen child of Adam...not just the saved ones.
 
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