Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

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Christ had no unregenerate disposition toward sin.

Our sinful desires (desires in themselves sinful, not good desires misapplied) come from our sinful nature.
Christ had no such nature.
But there is no sin in the inclination to avoid pain, abandonment, punishment, etc. when you are innocent, and having to continually choose to accept it.

Okay, so you essentially agree with Calvin. How could Christ be tempted unless he, in some sense, desired the object of temptation? If there is no desire for the object of temptation, then there is no temptation ( in the subjective sense).
 
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Yeah, well, everyone's got an opinion. I see no reason to defer to Calvin, and many reasons to not

I can understand that. What is temptation? Is it not a desire for the thing that tempts?
 
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Clare73

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Okay, so you essentially agree with Calvin. How could Christ be tempted unless he, in some sense, desired the object of temptation? If there is no desire for the object of temptation, then there is no temptation ( in the subjective sense).
It being a naturally good desire.
 
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you can be tempted because you are fallen, God can't be tempted because He Without Exception
IS Holy.

when it come's to your flesh The Bible Stipulate's to crucify your lustfully desires to avoid Condemnation.

Living a Holy Life is meant to produce a renewal of the mind and a revulsion to the carnal, temptation can not be defeated physically because your flesh is responsible for your lust, therefore it must be defeated By God in your life.

Was Jesus God? If so, was he tempted?
 
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It being a naturally good desire.

So temptations to sin arise from good desires, it's just that the circumstances if that desire were indulged would not be good? Can you say a little more, because I think I get what you're saying, but not sure.
 
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That makes sense. The word for lust (epithumeo) in that passage doesn't mean simple desire, but strong desire. The idea is to set one's heart on the thing desired. So, perhaps, we can say that Jesus experienced initial desire to sin, he just didn't set his heart on it. Or as you put it, didn't dwell on it.

That makes sense to me too. Here's a story that I think illustrates the point well. They were Zen monks but could just as well have been Christian monks if that's a consideration to anyone:

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”
 
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That makes sense to me too. Here's a story that I think illustrates the point well. They were Zen monks but could just as well have been Christian monks if that's a consideration to anyone:

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

I love that story! Thank you for sharing it.

Do you think Jesus ever felt the desire to sin? I take it some such desire must be in place to even be tempted. I think that was Calvin's point, desire to sin is sin.
 
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Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?
Generally, I would say that it is not a sin, but I have some caveats.

I believe that it can be a sin to seek out temptation, intentionally; a "dancing on the edge," if you will.

When temptation comes to us, God promises
"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man;
but God is faithful,
who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able,
but with the temptation will also make the way of escape,
that you may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV​

That is not guaranteed for temptation that we would seek out deliberately.

"Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue
  • righteousness,
  • faith,
  • love,
  • peace
with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." 2 Timothy 2:22 NKJV

I thought there was a verse that said outright "Flee temptation," but I couldn't find it. Deliberately seeking out temptation, if not sin, is at best, reckless.
 
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Do you think Jesus ever felt the desire to sin? I take it some such desire must be in place to even be tempted. I think that was Calvin's point, desire to sin is sin.

I think He must have felt the desire to sin because, as you say, it wouldn't make much sense to say that He was tempted if He hadn't. The way He dealt with temptation when he was being tempted in the wilderness was not to enter into a debate with Satan but to siimply quote a line of scripture such as "Man shall not live by bread alone". This is a very meditative approach: not letting yourself get caught up in desire and spinning a commentary about it but simply bringing your focus back.onto a object of meditation such as a Bible verse. The story of the temptation in the wilderness inspired the Desert Fathers to live in the desert in Egypt and practice meditation/contemplation in the third century.
 
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I think He must have felt the desire to sin because, as you say, it wouldn't make much sense to say that He was tempted if He hadn't. The way He dealt with temptation when he was being tempted in the wilderness was not to enter into a debate with Satan but to siimply quote a line of scripture such as "Man shall not live by bread alone". This is a very meditative approach: not letting yourself get caught up in desire and spinning a commentary about it but simply bringing your focus back.onto a object of meditation such as a Bible verse. The story of the temptation in the wilderness inspired the Desert Fathers to live in the desert in Egypt and practice meditation/contemplation in the third century.

As this thread has gone on I've been thinking along similar lines. The idea of guarding our heart, and the emphasis on dispelling first thoughts, as is often emphasised in the Philokalia.

@Pavel Mosko, the EO traditions on contemplative prayer come to mind as I think about this topic.
 
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So temptations to sin arise from good desires, it's just that the circumstances if that desire were indulged would not be good? Can you say a little more, because I think I get what you're saying, but not sure.
Jesus' temptations came from desires that were naturally good.
 
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Jesus' temptations came from desires that were naturally good.

That wasn't really an extrapolation on your other post, but that's okay. So, Jesus was tempted by sex, which is in and of itself good. Jesus was tempted by hatred, which...how would one phrase that? Jesus was tempted by greed, which...

What you are saying sounds good, but when I consider particulars it's not so easy to reconcile.
 
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I think He must have felt the desire to sin because, as you say, it wouldn't make much sense to say that He was tempted if He hadn't. The way He dealt with temptation when he was being tempted in the wilderness was not to enter into a debate with Satan but to siimply quote a line of scripture such as "Man shall not live by bread alone". This is a very meditative approach: not letting yourself get caught up in desire and spinning a commentary about it but simply bringing your focus back.onto a object of meditation such as a Bible verse. The story of the temptation in the wilderness inspired the Desert Fathers to live in the desert in Egypt and practice meditation/contemplation in the third century.
No there is no sin associated in any way with Jesus.

To say that is to misappropriate the infinite holiness of God.

His temptation had its source in good natural desires. . .the desire to avoid excruciating pain, and continually overcoming that desire to remain in agreement with accepting it.
 
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Jesus was tempted by hatred, which...how would one phrase that? Jesus was tempted by greed, which...

What you are saying sounds good, but when I consider particulars it's not so easy to reconcile.
Greed is the pathologized expression of thriving, being fruitful.
Hatred may very well be the pathologized version of justice.
 
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Greed is the pathologized expression of thriving, being fruitful.
Hatred may very well be the pathologized version of justice.

That's helpful. Thank you.
 
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I love that story! Thank you for sharing it.

Do you think Jesus ever felt the desire to sin? I take it some such desire must be in place to even be tempted. I think that was Calvin's point, desire to sin is sin.
Precisely.

Jesus said the same, desire for adultery is the sin of actual adultery, etc.

Don't be shocked, the unregenerate are fallen sinners, that's why they sin.
 
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Precisely.

Jesus said the same, desire for adultery is the sin of actual adultery, etc.

Don't be shocked, the unregenerate are sinners.

So, was Jesus ever tempted by adultery, and if so what did that temptation entail for him? It wasn't just the desire to have sex, simpliciter. It must have been the desire, however brief, to have sex with a particular, married woman, right? If so, was that sin?
 
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So, was Jesus ever tempted by adultery, and if so what did that temptation entail for him? It wasn't just the desire to have sex, simpliciter. It must have been the desire, however brief, to have sex with a particular, married woman, right? If so, was that sin?
He had no disposition to sin.

Why couldn't it have been the desire to have sex with an available virgin?
 
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Then he wasn't tempted.
You know better than that.

Not all temptation is sin. Only temptation to sin is sin.

My destiny is to be crucified in the most horrible excrutiating way, by consent.

My natural desire to avoid the pain I have agreed to, and am free to reject, is temptation, which I'm sure I would have to continually overcome.

I just bought a pair of new shoes. That beautiful flowing cool stream tempts me to walk in it over the jagged rocks in my new shoes. No sin is involved in the temptation, or in yielding to it.
 
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