The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Clare73]

Sez who? Just a number of my fellow Christians who typically don't think that my "Annihilationist" perspective is either coherent or correct.

But I don't mind, really. I don't hold it against them.

What do you think of post #12?

Go easy on me, keep it simple.
.

 

[Jesusfann777888]

The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

the devil just wants to make you angry with God.

The question that your asking encompasses sympathy for sinner's who did not want to repent. These question's are brought on about as a result of:

1. sin in your life
2. a lack of feeling as if you have a choice because a spirit has forced it's way into your life and has deceived you about a few things that make you question God's Goodness, Which Jesus IS GOOD!
3. the lack of an ability to do anything about your sin.

don't go down the rabbit hole with the devil about how all people are poor saps who just got a raw end of the Stick. life is about as serious as it could be, it was never a pick Nick and your realizing how Serious it is. God is severe with the wicked, sparing none.

you have to look at if from the standpoint of Jesus Christ'S Kingdom and man as the offender.

a lot of what your expieriencing has to do with deceit, that the devil is just some poor guy who didn't do anything wrong.

the devil is evil, it intend's your destruction, it's own, and everyone else's. It is consciously devoid of concept's like love and affection and good and right. it loves nothing and no one, it has purpouse's of it's own which are defined as an ideal of evil and destruction, don't go down that rabbit hole. It's a lie by someone who is clever enough to masquerade and play the human heart. It's nobody's friend and cares for nothing!

it is sad people are going to be destroyed, but from a military Standpoint it make's sense. you can't have Heaven filled with sinner's who do not Obey Jesus Christ The God Of Creation Who Are Expected To Be servant's of righteousness. beware of the devil and it's lie's or you'll be gullible enough to find yourself in hell with a tormentor. it intends to send people to hell, it's method is irrelevant.

if it has to abduct your children, hold you at gun-point, bend a knee and act like your friend, help someone who was sick, help someone with a problem, lure you, seduce you, pose as a women, a male, it doesn't matter it only want's to destroy what is good.don't be deceived.

 

[aiki]

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

This is called a false dichotomy. It offers only two options though there are others.

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

God can't be guilty of genocide. He has a unique prerogative as the Giver and Sustainer of life to be also the Taker of life. God doesn't do evil in acting as He wills with the life He brings into existence and sustains.

Your dichotomy here is, again, too restricted. There are more than the two options you've presented.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

In His word, God never indicates that all of humanity will be redeemed and saved. Jesus himself said,

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

Is this a failure on God's part? No. It is the consequence of making us free moral agents, responsible for our choices and able truly to love.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

None of these options properly characterize my view of what Scripture presents on the matter of redemption.

John 3:36
36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he who believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

 

[martymonster]

The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

What the bible actually teaches, in a nutshell, is that there are two groups.... those that are Christ's right now (decided before hand) and those that are not. Those that are his are being saved right now (from the the flesh) through his fire (judgment)

The second group will be saved later, through the first group, who will judge the world through Christ. The many come in through the few. Everyone is being conformed to the image of Christ (also the Father's image) sooner or later.

Those being saved now (God's elect) know that they are being saved now, and they also know that everyone will be saved later. Those who are not being saved now (the many) don't have a clue what's going on. It is not given to them to understand anything.


Sorry for the wall of text, but it's hard to condense it down in to less.

 

[friend of]

God does desire all men and women to come to saving knowledge of His Son Jesus. Not all will.

 

[martymonster]

God does desire all men and women to come to saving knowledge of His Son Jesus. Not all will.

So you're saying, only the first fruits are kept, but the rest of the harvest is thrown away?

 

[friend of]

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

@martymonster

 

[martymonster]

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

@martymonster

So that would be a yes then? So the scriptures contradict themselves?

 

[friend of]

So that would be a yes then? So the scriptures contradict themselves?

How so?

 

[martymonster]

How so?

The first fruits are God's and go to him. Then you have the rest of the harvest... but your account of things is that the first fruits go to God and then the rest or the harvest is disposed of in fire.

 

[friend of]

The first fruits are God's and go to him. Then you have the rest of the harvest... but your account of things is that the first fruits go to God and then the rest or the harvest is disposed of in fire.

Not all of the harvest is good wheat

 

[martymonster]

Not all of the harvest is good wheat

Most of it is not good, which is why it is purified. That's what fire does.

 

[public hermit]

I love these kinds of threads because it reminds me that so many Christians assume to know the limits of God's mercy. There's no sense that perhaps God is more powerful than sin or the human will. God is bound by our sinful decisions, apparently.

I'm not saying that UR is obviously true. I'm saying 1) some Christians think the scriptures capture everything that is possible for God, and 2) some Christian can't stand the idea that God would be merciful to anyone outside their group.

 

[friend of]

Most of it is not good, which is why it is purified. That's what fire does.

Fire destroys tares, it does not purify tares

 

[Saint Steven]

Genocide? Incineration? IMO that is a terrible way to frame God's righteous judgment, as if He would somehow be at fault for having people "tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" or "thrown into the lake of fire".

Thrown! Doesn't sound like a GOD someone wants to trifle with.

So, your view of God is a cosmic tyrant that one shouldn't trifle with? Why would you trust a God like that? Because there is no other choice?

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you believe that humankind are entitled to inherit eternal life as a birthright?
Do you find yourself experiencing feelings of sympathy for the devil?

No, I burned all my Rolling Stones records. - lol

 

[martymonster]

Fire destroys tares, it does not purify tares

I don't think destroy means what you think it means.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

[Saint Steven]

the devil just wants to make you angry with God.

I'm not angry at God. I'm angry at the church that gave us a bogus view of God. A caricature that resembles an angry volcano god.

 

[Saint Steven]

...God can't be guilty of genocide. He has a unique prerogative as the Giver and Sustainer of life to be also the Taker of life. God doesn't do evil in acting as He wills with the life He brings into existence and sustains....

So, you drank the Kool Aid too. I see.

 

[Saint Steven]

God does desire all men and women to come to saving knowledge of His Son Jesus. Not all will.

Here's what I know about that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)