Inside and outside of the fold... what is of most importance?

[Saint Steven]

In or out? What matters most?
Was Jesus inclusive of outsiders that demonstrated faith in him? (yes)
And what about the insiders that found themselves thrown out?
How many are living with a false security, thinking they are insiders?
What really matters?

Some scriptures to consider:

John 10:16 NIV
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 4:22 NIV
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The Faith of the Centurion
Matthew 8:10 NIV
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
Matthew 15:28 NIV
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Matthew 22:8-10 NIV
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 8:12 NIV
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:12-13 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

Matthew 7:22-23 NIV
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well the correct (but also easy and cliché) answer is "relationship" with God.

I guess for me the way to kind of qualify that, are scriptures that say things like God you are my portion, my heritance, etc. when things are really screwed up. Because lots of people are happy to follow God if things are good and they get what they want, but can easily resent God for things being screwed up, for pain and suffering in this life.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

He came to save sinners like me! Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31

 

[Saint Steven]

Well the correct (but also easy and cliché) answer is "relationship" with God.

Let's discuss why that is either the right answer, or the wrong answer. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

He came to save sinners like me! Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:31

Was Jesus inclusive to include you? You didn't have to "clean up your act" first?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Let's discuss why that is either the right answer, or the wrong answer. Thanks.

Well it is easy to make a case for having a relationship with God lots of scriptures to quote going back to Adam and Eve in the Garden. I guess the more interesting point is people who are deceived in verses like

Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I guess some of this stuff gets into more of a philosophical look at things. Such as why we (Christians historically speaking) believe God created man etc. It has to do with things like the Divine Economy etc.

Economy, Divine | Encyclopedia.com



As a eastern Christian it kind of a point of meditation that relationship aka "being in Communion with" is a primary theme. You can easily call it a Meta theme of the Bible, like a number of different topics that recur a lot. But it is one of those answers that can be a cliche, especially when people try to juxtapose having a relationship with God as somehow being mutually exclusive to things like "Religion" etc. (always portraying that as negative, that is unspiritual or always a spiritual counterfeit) etc.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well it is easy to make a case for having a relationship with God lots of scriptures to quote going back to Adam and Eve in the Garden. I guess the more interesting point is people who are deceived in verses like

Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes. I have another topic about authority. Those in this scripture were using authority (things done in Christ's name) to prophesy and cast out devils, but the relationship was missing. Seems they thought they were in the fold.

 

[Saint Steven]

As a eastern Christian it kind of a point of meditation that relationship aka "being in Communion with" is a primary theme. You can easily call it a Meta theme of the Bible, like a number of different topics that recur a lot. But it is one of those answers that can be a cliche, especially when people try to juxtapose having a relationship with God as somehow being mutually exclusive to things like "Religion" etc. (always portraying that as negative, that is unspiritual or always a spiritual counterfeit) etc.

It seems that some in the Tradition churches have the idea that if they are in the Church, that's all that counts. Safe in the fold.

 

[public hermit]

God is not a big fan of the presumptuous, apparently.

There is a line in my prayer book that goes, "Lord, keep me from presumption!" Amen.

 

[Saint Steven]

God is not a big fan of the presumptuous, apparently.

There is a line in my prayer book that goes, "Lord, keep me from presumption!" Amen.

Amen, indeed.
I'm trying to imagine the looks on the faces of the Israelites when Jesus made this announcement.

The Faith of the Centurion
Matthew 8:10-12 NIV
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[public hermit]

I suppose it's a given that many Judeans during Jesus's day assumed Gentiles were outside of the circle of God's love. With scripture and tradition they felt confident in their assessment, only to be shown wrong.

Today many Christians (too many?) assume those who are not Christian are outside the circle of God's love. With scripture and tradition, they feel confident in their presumption. Could they too be shown wrong? Of course!!

If exclusionary tendencies blinded the 1st century faithful to the 1st coming of the Lord, perhaps some now will be utterly astonished at the 2nd coming.

Presumption works both ways. If it says, Yes," it might be a resounding "No!" If it says, "No," it might be a resounding "Yes!" To put presumption aside and be open to God's future is a supreme act of faith in God. Jesus did it on the cross and God proved faithful. But never should we assume that the radical love of God is predictable, imo.

 

[Saint Steven]

I suppose it's a given that many Judeans during Jesus's day assumed Gentiles were outside of the circle of God's love. With scripture and tradition they felt confident in their assessment, only to be shown wrong.

Today many Christians (too many?) assume those who are not Christian are outside the circle of God's love. With scripture and tradition, they feel confident in their presumption. Could they too be shown wrong? Of course!!

If exclusionary tendencies blinded the 1st century faithful to the 1st coming of the Lord, perhaps some now will be utterly astonished at the 2nd coming.

Presumption works both ways. If it says, Yes," it might be a resounding "No!" If it says, "No," it might be a resounding "Yes!" To put presumption aside and be open to God's future is a supreme act of faith in God. Jesus did it on the cross and God proved faithful. But never should we assume that the radical love of God is predictable, imo.

Yes. The flock is so quick to label others as heretics and pagans and heathen, with no regard for what God might be doing outside of our group-think prejudices and tribalism. And institutions that would declare an individual anathema. As if they could prevent God's salvation with their institutional "authority" protocols and rulings.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes. The flock is so quick to label others as heretics and pagans and heathen, with no regard for what God might be doing outside of our group-think prejudices and tribalism. And institutions that would declare an individual anathema. As if they could prevent God's salvation with their institutional "authority" protocols and rulings.

I don't think God relinquished his sovereignty to "the Church". (capital C)

Luke 12:42-46 NIV
The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 

[Clare73]

Yes. The flock is so quick to label others as heretics and pagans and heathen, with no regard for what God might be doing outside of our group-think prejudices and tribalism. And institutions that would declare an individual anathema. As if they could prevent God's salvation with their institutional "authority" protocols and rulings.

They aren't declaring them not saved, they're declaring them not right in their doctrine.

And depending on the doctrine, it could impinge salvation.

 

[AubreyM]

In or out? What matters most?
Was Jesus inclusive of outsiders that demonstrated faith in him? (yes)
And what about the insiders that found themselves thrown out?
How many are living with a false security, thinking they are insiders?
What really matters?

Some scriptures to consider:

John 10:16 NIV
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 4:22 NIV
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The Faith of the Centurion
Matthew 8:10 NIV
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
Matthew 15:28 NIV
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Matthew 22:8-10 NIV
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 8:12 NIV
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:12-13 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

Matthew 7:22-23 NIV
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What matters most is knowing and learning and coming to and understanding about God and the Lord Jesus, the knowledge of God and his will, the promises Gods gives, and having a relationship with them.

Faith comes by hearing the word, and truth of the Gospel of the life, death burial, and resurrection.

There is so much to learn and share with those who desire to listen, and you can let those moments come when God presents them. Allowing God to help you relying on his power by the spirit to allow you to share the wisdom and knowledge of his will, and promises.

Prayer and praying for others to be delivered from darkness and into the kingdom of Gods Son, (Colossians 1:13) and for them to grow in their knowledge and in spiritual understanding, and wisdom.

There are many treasures found in The Father and Christ Jesus.

 

[Jaxxi]

In or out? What matters most?
Was Jesus inclusive of outsiders that demonstrated faith in him? (yes)
And what about the insiders that found themselves thrown out?
How many are living with a false security, thinking they are insiders?
What really matters?

Some scriptures to consider:

John 10:16 NIV
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 4:22 NIV
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The Faith of the Centurion
Matthew 8:10 NIV
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
Matthew 15:28 NIV
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Matthew 22:8-10 NIV
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 8:12 NIV
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:12-13 NIV
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

Matthew 7:22-23 NIV
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What is MOST important? Not going to hell. I would have to say that if you don't take anything else from the Bible, take that. Take , " Do not go to hell, And Jesus is the way the truth and the Light. Trust, have faith in and Love God before anyone" Those are MOST important. Oh and" Get Baptized and Repent. "

What else do you absolutely need to live?

 

[Saint Steven]

What is MOST important? Not going to hell. I would have to say that if you don't take anything else from the Bible, take that. Take , " Do not go to hell, And Jesus is the way the truth and the Light. Trust, have faith in and Love God before anyone" Those are MOST important. Oh and" Get Baptized and Repent. "

What else do you absolutely need to live?

Not sure if it was intentional but, "Jesus is the way the truth and the Light" is a misquote.

So, the most important thing is to make sure you are okay, and to hell with everyone else? That sort of thinking might earn you hell.

Who poisoned your mind with the fear of hell?

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Jaxxi]

Not sure if it was intentional but, "Jesus is the way the truth and the Light" is a misquote.

So, the most important thing is to make sure you are okay, and to hell with everyone else? That sort of thinking might earn you hell.

Who poisoned your mind with the fear of hell?

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Have you not read the New Testament?

And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Matthew 10 28

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. So is the tongue among our members that it defileth the whole body and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire from hell. James 3:6

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:12

and shall cut him asunder and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 24:51


Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness Corinthians 6:14


Let them alone; they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”Matthew 15:14

When it comes down to it who will stand with you before God? We must each stand alone. We are to love each other but not more than God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Have you not read the New Testament?

I quoted the NT. Is your NT better than my NT? How did these verses sneak in there?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.