Unbelievers Are Condemned

[Halbhh]

John 3:
17 God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order
that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one who believes in Him is not condemned; but whoever does not believe
has been condemned already, because he has not put his trust in the name of
the one and only Ben-Elohim.
19 Now this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world and men loved
the darkness instead of the light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, so that
their deeds will not be exposed.
21 But whoever practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be made known
that his deeds have been accomplished in God.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord! will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

That is, if they fully heard (and fully understood) the accurate gospel, and then rejected Christ, that would be the situation said here.

But while many have indeed done just that, many others, today, haven't heard the gospel (or haven't heard it correctly), but have only a 2nd hand version about it that isn't complete or sometimes isn't even correct.

And no one is held accountable for what they do not know or do not intend.

 

[Mr. M]

Indeed, because it separates sin attachments of a lifetime, burns away corruption of the flesh and false identities. That's why the devil is tormented, because he just keeps resisting God's transforming love, the life of Christ.

Jesus teaches that everyone will be salted with fire, and salt is good. (Mark 9:49-50).

And Paul tells us that ultimately all creation will be subdued to Christ (1 Corinthians 15:28).

There is more to this than just the lake of fire in Revelation. It is about His Presence.
2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away
with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works
that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be
in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will
be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

2 Thessalonians 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who
do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and
from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The Parousia is a consuming fire
2 Thessalonians 2:
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains
will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the
breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power,
signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did
not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure
in unrighteousness.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There is more to this than just the lake of fire in Revelation. It is about His Presence.

Yes, agreed. Theion, the fiery purifying all-consuming presence of God's intense burning love. Destroys the old man, the sinful corrupt and fleshy man. And they'll look back upon the carcasses with contempt.

We need to reconcile the salvation of the nations in Rev 21:24 and 22:2, as per the promises that all nations will be blessed, every tongue will confess, all will be subdued to Christ etc with the fiery judgment and destruction passages.

Knowing that God IS love, this can only be done by reading the destruction passages as instrumental, ie that the destruction is unto salvation. Saved, as through fire, wheat and chaff burned away.

I baptise with water, but he who comes after me baptises with fire and the Spirit. See the son, see the Father.

Full immersion in the presence of God - the Great Physician's ultimate remedy.

How else can the apparent conflict be resolved?

 

[Saint Steven]

Condemned to perish through lack of knowledge.

So Jesus brings knowledge, through the gospel, which is glad tidings of great joy for all mankind viz that God has reconciled the world to Him. Translation: the hound of heaven never misses!

Anyone who thinks they hate Jesus hasn't met him yet.

Look what happened to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. 180 degree transformation in seconds. "Who are you, Lord?" Prior to that, breathing out murderous threats against the church. Armed with letters to give him authority to bring back anyone found in the Way in chains to Jerusalem. And within 10 seconds of meeting Jesus...

How would the afterlife be any different? The love of God is irresistible.

Sure we are CONDEMNED. But imagine getting a hug from the judge. "Welcome home, my child."

 

[Saint Steven]

That's why the devil is tormented, because he just keeps resisting God's transforming love, the life of Christ.

I have wondered whether there is provision of grace for the fallen angels or not. If the same LoF was created for them, then why not? Still... ???

Maybe they will require the longest soak? - lol

 

[Bobber]

Anyone who thinks they hate Jesus hasn't met him yet.

Look what happened to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. 180 degree transformation in seconds. "Who are you, Lord?" Prior to that, breathing out murderous threats against the church. Armed with letters to give him authority to bring back anyone found in the Way in chains to Jerusalem. And within 10 seconds of meeting Jesus...

How would the afterlife be any different? The love of God is irresistible.

Sure we are CONDEMNED. But imagine getting a hug from the judge. "Welcome home, my child."

That's not what Jesus said to the Pharisees and religious leaders who hated him in Matt 23. He never said in the next world I'll be giving you a hug welcoming you home.

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matt 23: 33

 

[Saint Steven]

That's not what Jesus said to the Pharisees and religious leaders who hated him in Matt 23. He never said in the next world I'll be giving you a hug welcoming you home.

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matt 23: 33

Were the rest of us off the hook for condemnation? Isn't this topic about the condemnation of humankind as a whole? How are we any better off than the Pharisees you point out? What does that mean for us?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Anyone who thinks they hate Jesus hasn't met him yet.

Look what happened to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. 180 degree transformation in seconds. "Who are you, Lord?" Prior to that, breathing out murderous threats against the church. Armed with letters to give him authority to bring back anyone found in the Way in chains to Jerusalem. And within 10 seconds of meeting Jesus...

How would the afterlife be any different? The love of God is irresistible.

Sure we are CONDEMNED. But imagine getting a hug from the judge. "Welcome home, my child."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I have wondered whether there is provision of grace for the fallen angels or not. If the same LoF was created for them, then why not? Still... ???

Maybe they will require the longest soak? - lol

Exactly, we'll run bets on how long azazel or whatever can hold out. They despise the idea of being subdued to a higher power, because they're full of pride and envy. But the LoF destroys the sin, consumes it in love. It might take an aeon, but can the creature ultimately resist the creator? King crimson to snowy white.

That's what gives satan nightmares, he's known it's coming to pass even before Calvary. But now he releases the beast with wrath, because he knows his time is short.

And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mt 8:29)

The coming torment is the demons' transformation in Christ.

 

[Mr. M]

Were the rest of us off the hook for condemnation? Isn't this topic about the condemnation of humankind as a whole?

It is not friend. It is about the condemnation of those who do not believe that Jesus Christ
is the Son of God. He goes on to explain why, I will repeat the Words of Christ being discussed
in the OP, if it will help restore the topic of the thread. Please continue the discussion in that light.
John 3:
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Saint Steven]

That's what gives satan nightmares, he's known it's coming to pass even before Calvary. But now he releases the beast with wrath, because he knows his time is short.

And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Mt 8:29)

The coming torment is the demons' transformation in Christ.

I guess he'll "give them the business". - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I guess he'll "give them the business". - lol

I always liked the use of that expression and word in that context. The demons are mercantile, apparently some even settled in Venice.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is not friend. It is about the condemnation of those who do not believe that Jesus Christ
is the Son of God. He goes on to explain why, I will repeat the Words of Christ being discussed
in the OP, if it will help restore the topic of the thread. Please continue the discussion in that light.
John 3:
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

This only serves to prove my point.

Furthermore, Adam's transgression/trespass brought condemnation for all his descendants. Scriptures below. Those of us who believe have "crossed over from death to life". That death was the condemnation that hangs over all of humankind.

I refuse to continue the discussion based on limited biblical information. You'll have to forgive me, or toss me out. (just ask me to leave and I will) I'm fine either way. Not about to compromise on this point. (with all due respect)

John 3:18 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Romans 5:16, 18 NIV
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. ...
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Mr. M]

This only serves to prove my point.

Furthermore, Adam's transgression/trespass brought condemnation for all his descendants. Scriptures below. Those of us who believe have "crossed over from death to life". That death was the condemnation that hags over all of humankind.

I refuse to to continue the discussion based on limited biblical information. You'll have to forgive me, or toss me out. (just ask me to leave and I will) I'm fine either way. Not about to compromise on this point. (with all due respect)

John 3:18 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So then those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God remain under the condemnation?

 

[Mr. M]

This only serves to prove my point.

The point of the narrative contained in the OP, and the teaching of Christ is that salvation
is based on believing the Gospel, not past deeds. Condemnation is based on not believing
the Gospel, not past deeds. Anyone who has spent any time sharing the Gospel can bear witness
to both sides of this Truth.
I have heard this testimony:
"I don't think I need to be concerned about going to heaven when I die. It is not like I have been
out mugging old ladies and taking their purses"
In other words, I have not been bad, I should be okay.
I have also heard this testimony:
"I know where I am going when I die, God doesn't want to have anything to do with me.
I have done too many terrible things."

Someone who cannot share the Gospel that Jesus Christ is teaching in John chapter 3,
they are working with limited understanding.
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world
through Him might be saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

So then those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God remain under the condemnation?

Yes, that is my position.

Colossians 2:13-15 NIV
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

 

[Saint Steven]

The point of the narrative contained in the OP, and the teaching of Christ is that salvation
is based on believing the Gospel, not past deeds. Condemnation is based on not believing
the Gospel, not past deeds. Anyone who has spent any time sharing the Gospel can bear witness
to both sides of this Truth.
I have heard this testimony:
"I don't think I need to be concerned about going to heaven when I die. It is not like I have been
out mugging old ladies and taking their purses"
In other words, I have not been bad, I should be okay.
I have also heard this testimony:
"I know where I am going when I die, God doesn't want to have anything to do with me.
I have done too many terrible things."

Someone who cannot share the Gospel that Jesus Christ is teaching in John chapter 3,
they are working with limited understanding.
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world
through Him might be saved.

Perhaps we are splitting hairs on this. It's both, not one or the other.

I'm saying that our condemnation is a result of our fallen state as a result of Adam's sin. Condemnation is our default mode, if you will. We are offered through Christ, the opportunity to resolve this condemnation that hangs over ALL of humankind by receiving the gift of reconciliation. What exactly is being reconciled? (see bold below)

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Mr. M]

Perhaps we are splitting hairs on this. It's both, not one or the other.

Any individual decision to believe or disbelieve makes it one or the other,
until they come to their senses. Paul is not splitting hairs here, he is speaking Truth.
2 Timothy 2:
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them
repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been
taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Mr. M]

Yes, agreed. Theion, the fiery purifying all-consuming presence of God's intense burning love. Destroys the old man, the sinful corrupt and fleshy man. And they'll look back upon the carcasses with contempt.

We need to reconcile the salvation of the nations in Rev 21:24 and 22:2, as per the promises that all nations will be blessed, every tongue will confess, all will be subdued to Christ etc with the fiery judgment and destruction passages.

Knowing that God IS love, this can only be done by reading the destruction passages as instrumental, ie that the destruction is unto salvation. Saved, as through fire, wheat and chaff burned away.

I baptise with water, but he who comes after me baptises with fire and the Spirit. See the son, see the Father.

Full immersion in the presence of God - the Great Physician's ultimate remedy.

How else can the apparent conflict be resolved?

By the knowledge of good and evil, we struggle to comprehend the God of Love.
Paul says we know this by experience.
Ephesians 3:19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled
with all the fullness of God.

Knowing that God's Love surpasses ours, can we afford to underestimate His Hate?
Proverbs 6:
16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Isaiah 55:
8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Anyone who is convinced that the God of Love would never destroy
the wicked, but will rehabilitate them, has underestimated His hatred.
"Eternal conscious torments" is a doctrine of man. The second death
is death. Thus Christ teaches His disciples:
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Any individual decision to believe or disbelieve makes it one or the other,
until they come to their senses. Paul is not splitting hairs here, he is speaking Truth.
2 Timothy 2:
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken
captive by him to do his will.

This isn't a foolish and ignorant dispute, it's a question of whether ppl are willing to believe that Jesus is a success or failure. Either he saves the world or he does not. It's about the Christian faith, which so many profess to have, but only when it comes to the certitude that they themselves are being saved.

Pride is the sin of the world and of Christians who would dare to double-guess Jesus on who will or won't be saved. As though we can earn salvation. Leaven of the Pharisees.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Knowing that God's Love surpasses ours, can we afford to underestimate His Hate?

That's the dualist pagan heresy that underlies the false doctrine. God IS love, that is His essence. His anger is but for a moment. And His anger is always righteous. His ways are higher, not lower. He can't be more petty, vindictive and monstrous than us. What a thought!