Russia condemns racism against white Americans

[durangodawood]

....Progressives: Yeah, for the last generation America has had systemic racism in schools, business, and government, but that's not racism because in prior generations in was reversed and this is to make up for it.

Also Progressives: Privilege is a claim about the present more than the past. That's why it doesn't matter if WASPs threw rocks at your father and he lost opportunities to black women because of race.

Motte & Bailey, Every Time.

I'm not speaking for "progressives". Just for myself. So you probably shouldnt have quoted me to launch that^.

 

[Pommer]

I thought I'd give my best Ben "Facts and Logic" Shapiro impression a go.

-CryptoLutheran

I thought that that was familiar rhetoric!

 

[ViaCrucis]

So this is the crux of what I'm pointing out:

I don't, as an American of Irish heritage, get to point out how my Irish Catholic ancestors who fled here during the famine were mistreated, and then go on to ignore the way America treated immigrants from other places as though that doesn't count.

... only you have it inverted.

Progressive oikophobes and leukophobes want to point out how immigrants from other places were mistreated, but then condescendingly tell me, as we can see in this thread, all about my "White Privilege". It's a regular pattern that the history of white Slavic Americans is ignored and lumped in with WASPs. It's 1) They're defecating their "white privilege" hatred all over my pale Slavic face 2) I point out their racist ignorance of Slavs and then in turn 3) You come in here and tell me I need to consider the mistreatment of other people. THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT TO THEM

I benefit from my white privilege because those systems of white privilege which at one point disregarded my Irish ancestors as other no longer do so. My Irishness does not distinguish me from my whiteness in the United States of America. There is nothing stopping me from being accepted as "white" in the context of American culture; and because of my acceptance as "white" I therefore benefit from cultural whiteness even though my ancestors did not benefit from cultural whiteness.

In another post you try to present an argument as though this is a kind of double-speak; except that's simply not the case.

Historic systems of whiteness giving preferential treatment to whiteness have not continued to be oppressive toward me in my Irishness; because Irishness has been accepted in the larger milieu of whiteness.

You know who still has disadvantage under those systems? People who aren't accepted as "white". People of color; those who are unable to fall under the umbrella of whiteness. As a person of Irish ancestry my Irishness no longer excludes from whiteness; and thus my whiteness is assumed regardless of the historic treatment of Irish immigrants in the past.

It is the past informing the present, and the ways that happens that are being examined and critiqued.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Estrid]

I benefit from my white privilege because those systems of white privilege which at one point disregarded my Irish ancestors as other no longer do so. My Irishness does not distinguish me from my whiteness in the United States of America. There is nothing stopping me from being accepted as "white" in the context of American culture; and because of my acceptance as "white" I therefore benefit from cultural whiteness even though my ancestors did not benefit from cultural whiteness.

In another post you try to present an argument as though this is a kind of double-speak; except that's simply not the case.

Historic systems of whiteness giving preferential treatment to whiteness have not continued to be oppressive toward me in my Irishness; because Irishness has been accepted in the larger milieu of whiteness.

You know who still has disadvantage under those systems? People who aren't accepted as "white". People of color; those who are unable to fall under the umbrella of whiteness. As a person of Irish ancestry my Irishness no longer excludes from whiteness; and thus my whiteness is assumed regardless of the historic treatment of Irish immigrants in the past.

It is the past informing the present, and the ways that happens that are being examined and critiqued.

-CryptoLutheran

Some can TRY referring to my " yellowness".
Or call me a person of colour.
I recommend against it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Privilege is a claim about the present more than the past. Thats the great thing about the invention of "whiteness": its a big-tent that everyone of Euro-Caucasian descent could aspire to and assimilate into.... and did. Even Jews were offered a guest membership.

I suspect part of the break down in communication is over the idea of whiteness. Some hear "whiteness" and think "white people". Which may explain the confusion of some here; believing that criticism of whiteness is a criticism of white people for having pink skin.

Irish people are white. But Irish immigrants to the United States did not have whiteness. Whiteness refers to racial and ethnic acceptance as part of the in-group in the context of Anglo-American racial and societal perceptions. Thus in the 19th century Irish immigrants lacked whiteness because they were not WASPs. Over time the Irish assimilated into the greater milieu of American whiteness, and thus at one time not having whiteness did come to have it.

In the case of Jewish people, guest membership is probably the best way to describe it. The fact that we have a member of Congress that believes in literal Jewish space lasers is fairly demonstrative of the fact that Jewish people--regardless of how white a Jewish person may look--is still other in the context of American whiteness.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some can TRY referring to my " yellowness".
Or call me a person of colour.
I recommend against it.

Was someone attempting to do so? What does this have to do with my post you quoted?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Estrid]

Was someone attempting to do so? What does this have to do with my post you quoted?

-CryptoLutheran

Nobody tried it. Just think talking about " whiteness" is noxious.
Or if I went on about the privilege here of my yellowness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nobody tried it. Just think talking about " whiteness" is noxious.
Or if I went on about the privilege here of my yellowness.

In the context of Hong Kong talking about whiteness isn't really going to make any sense.

But in the context of China there very much is a case of Han privilege. But that's hardly germane here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hans Blaster]

"correcting biases", or "affirmative action" as it's more commonly euphemized, is exactly that: an euphemism. It doesn't stop being racism just because you think it's justified. It still meets the definition of racial discrimination; fighting racism with racism just makes you racist for a different team. People think that because the racism of "correcting biases" doesn't bother them it must be a sign that it's not bad.

Since my original entry on this thread related to university admissions, I will limit my response to that part.

First any university, college, professional school with "selective admissions" will always exclude people who were capable of succeeding in the program.

Second, the criteria used to make admission choices are imperfect predictors of success in the program. No matter which criteria they use they will select people who fail (or change their minds) and exclude people that would have succeeded.

Third some of the selection criteria have biases against certain groups of people, such that if the same cut-offs are applied they will disproportionately de-select certain groups of people who could succeed more readily than others. The bias corrections I wrote of are about adjusting the selection thresholds to *avoid* underselecting groups against which those criteria show bias.

If you have some selection criteria (test scores, grades, etc.) used in university admissions that show a bias against Catholic slavs, then by all means point them out to your local university.

 

[Estrid]

In the context of Hong Kong talking about whiteness isn't really going to make any sense.

But in the context of China there very much is a case of Han privilege. But that's hardly germane here.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't need a link to know about how being
Han is to my advantage.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't need a link to know about how being
Han is to my advantage.

It was for others reading this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[KarateCowboy]

I benefit from my white privilege because those systems of white privilege which at one point disregarded my Irish ancestors as other no longer do so. My Irishness does not distinguish me from my whiteness in the United States of America. There is nothing stopping me from being accepted as "white" in the context of American culture; and because of my acceptance as "white" I therefore benefit from cultural whiteness even though my ancestors did not benefit from cultural whiteness.

In another post you try to present an argument as though this is a kind of double-speak; except that's simply not the case.

Historic systems of whiteness giving preferential treatment to whiteness have not continued to be oppressive toward me in my Irishness; because Irishness has been accepted in the larger milieu of whiteness.

You know who still has disadvantage under those systems? People who aren't accepted as "white". People of color; those who are unable to fall under the umbrella of whiteness. As a person of Irish ancestry my Irishness no longer excludes from whiteness; and thus my whiteness is assumed regardless of the historic treatment of Irish immigrants in the past.

It is the past informing the present, and the ways that happens that are being examined and critiqued.

-CryptoLutheran

Saying "that's not the case" is a rejection, not a refutation. A polite way of saying "i'm going to ignore that".

You're just saying the same thing but with different words. It's like a relay race where each generation is a runner. Systemic racism is weights on their ankles. For the last generation universities, government, and business have switched who gets the ankle weights in the name of rectifying the prior relay rounds, but are saying "Slavs, you're white now", so they have to wear the ankle weights in this round as well. So Slavs got to wear the ankle weights in prior rounds of the relay because they weren't white; now they get to wear the ankle weights in this round because they're white.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Since my original entry on this thread related to university admissions, I will limit my response to that part.

First any university, college, professional school with "selective admissions" will always exclude people who were capable of succeeding in the program.

Second, the criteria used to make admission choices are imperfect predictors of success in the program. No matter which criteria they use they will select people who fail (or change their minds) and exclude people that would have succeeded.

Third some of the selection criteria have biases against certain groups of people, such that if the same cut-offs are applied they will disproportionately de-select certain groups of people who could succeed more readily than others. The bias corrections I wrote of are about adjusting the selection thresholds to *avoid* underselecting groups against which those criteria show bias.

If you have some selection criteria (test scores, grades, etc.) used in university admissions that show a bias against Catholic slavs, then by all means point them out to your local university.

Yeah. I understand that you think The System discriminates against groups that aren't white, and so you're rectifying that by discriminating in the other direction. The thing you're forgetting is that as a university you are The System.

American corporations, universities, businesses, churches, and k-12 schools are The System. The System discriminates in favor of non-whites. Why? Because The System discriminates against them. That's why they have to discriminate in their favor.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yeah. I understand that you think The System discriminates against groups that aren't white, and so you're rectifying that by discriminating in the other direction. The thing you're forgetting is that as a university you are The System.

American corporations, universities, businesses, churches, and k-12 schools are The System. The System discriminates in favor of non-whites. Why? Because The System discriminates against them. That's why they have to discriminate in their favor.

That's not really what I wrote. I wrote about correcting biases in measurement systems.

Would it be fair to use a measure that identified the top 10% of one group and the top 20% of another group and then offer admission to those so identified? Or, having identified that the measure more tightly selected one group (the first group), loosen that criterion so that it selected the top 20% of that group as well?

Now I did assume that the intellectual capacities of different groups are the same. Do you think that some racial or ethnic groups are intrinsically less intelligent?

 

[Estrid]

Saying "that's not the case" is a rejection, not a refutation. A polite way of saying "i'm going to ignore that".

You're just saying the same thing but with different words. It's like a relay race where each generation is a runner. Systemic racism is weights on their ankles. For the last generation universities, government, and business have switched who gets the ankle weights in the name of rectifying the prior relay rounds, but are saying "Slavs, you're white now", so they have to wear the ankle weights in this round as well. So Slavs got to wear the ankle weights in prior rounds of the relay because they weren't white; now they get to wear the ankle weights in this round because they're white.

That is messed up. I gotta figure out who the slavs are tho....

 

[KarateCowboy]

That is messed up. I gotta figure out who the slavs are tho....

Russians, Belarusians, Ukranians, Poles, Serbians, Croatians, etc.

And you're right: it is messed up. But that's how they operate. And they don't care. It's not about social justice for them; because that would mean distinguishing between the histories of different white groups. That would require effort and attention to detail; justice is concerned with details because the Devil is in the details. That kind of effort isn't needed when your goal is to use shame and guilt to manipulate people -- "check your privilege!" or "You can't possibly understand because you're speaking from a position of privilege". And as a study of history shows: guilt and shame are the go-to for manipulating the masses into obedience.

 

[KarateCowboy]

That's not really what I wrote. I wrote about correcting biases in measurement systems.

Would it be fair to use a measure that identified the top 10% of one group and the top 20% of another group and then offer admission to those so identified? Or, having identified that the measure more tightly selected one group (the first group), loosen that criterion so that it selected the top 20% of that group as well?

Now I did assume that the intellectual capacities of different groups are the same. Do you think that some racial or ethnic groups are intrinsically less intelligent?

The problem you can't help but see is caused by the way you see. Stop reducing individuals mere pieces of a greater racial collective. When you see everyone not as individuals but as members of a BORG style racial collective then that's the problem right there. "When all you have is a hammer...". It's an assault on human dignity and, quite frankly, kind of bigoted. Stop belittling people by treating them as a percentage of this group or that group. Is messed up and racist.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The problem you can't help but see is caused by the way you see. Stop reducing individuals mere pieces of a greater racial collective. When you see everyone not as individuals but as members of a BORG style racial collective then that's the problem right there. "When all you have is a hammer...". It's an assault on human dignity and, quite frankly, kind of bigoted. Stop belittling people by treating them as a percentage of this group or that group. Is messed up and racist.

I've belittled no one. You have no idea how I think about race and frankly I have no intention of discussing that with you.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I've belittled no one. You have no idea how I think about race and frankly I have no intention of discussing that with you.

H'oooookaaaayy well maybe I misunderstood you. But when you talk about this group and that group and engineering outcomes, presumably based on race, it sure sounds like the typical university racism we see these days. It's belittling to the individual, intrinsically.

 

[Hans Blaster]

H'oooookaaaayy well maybe I misunderstood you. But when you talk about this group and that group and engineering outcomes, presumably based on race, it sure sounds like the typical university racism we see these days. It's belittling to the individual, intrinsically.

If talking anything of race is belittling to the individual why are you even posting on a thread about "racism" of any kind, no matter what group is allegedly being discriminated against, black people, white people, slavs, irish, whatever. Why should we care? You seem to think there is nothing to talk about, so let's not talk about them.