Amillennialism Safe House

Christian Gedge

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Let us know how you get on. I dont know of Sam Waldron but 'A case for Amillennialism' has an appendixed article in the end pages that might help. It's titled, 'Did Christ come back in AD 70?' (page 239) and is subtitled, 'The Problem with Preterism (Full and Partial)

May be what you're looking for?
 
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Christian Gedge

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Yes, Zechariah 14 has only two possible interpretations IMO (someone may suggest another) and its literal fulfillment has been a major proof text for Premils. Here they are so you might have to take your pick:
  • Strict Literal View
Zechariah 14 will happen in the future and has to be fulfilled literally in all aspects. It will begin at the return of Christ and will be a partial destruction after which the earth will be refurbished and the survivors go into the millennial reign. The end of the world, as described by other prophets, will occur 1000 years after that.
  • Near/Far Fulfillment View
Zechariah 14 is a ‘near/far' fulfillment prophecy. The initial fulfillment was the destruction of Jerusalem by armies in AD70 followed by the spread of the gospel (in symbolic language) throughout the Church age. However this early fulfillment prefigures a final and complete destruction which happens at Christ’s return.
 
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TribulationSigns

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In regards to Zecheriah 14, how does it fit with Amillenialism?

I am heavily leaning towards an amillenialist view - I don’t believe in a literal 1,000 year reign anymore as commonly taught.

By Sola Scriptura that they interpret scripture by scripture alone, not by secular history, not by archaeologists, not by Josephus, not by consensus, not by Dr. John Walvoord, not by William Tyndale, and not by a pool of physical water that might be in the middle east. Scripture alone interprets scripture. Anything more or less than God's word is "Private Interpretation!"

I, as amillennialist, believe Zechariah 14 was talking about the fall of Old Testament Congregation at Christ's FIRST coming. For example, not coming with full commentary:

Living Water:

Zechariah 14:8
  • "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."
Christ is the living waters that went out from Jerusalem at the Cross. Living waters, by "BIBLICAL" definition, is life imparting to anyone who drinks. We cannot privately interpret living waters to be non-living. Private interpretation (also called personal opinion, and especially literal interpretation) is the error of the ages, and the cornerstone of Premillennialism. We cannot all have our individual personal interpretation of living waters, they must be defined in the confines of Scripture. Defining the living waters by the Bible, we understand that it is the salvation provided by Christ Himself, and sent forth by His church, not H20 flowing from a physical creek in the physical nation of Israel. Physical Sanctuary and water just don't agree with the "whole" of scripture, and must therefore be rejected.I believe that this is talking about Him going forth to Jews and Gentile. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to salvation first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of verse that follows.

Zechariah 14:9
  • "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
I believe this illustrates that there is no longer the division of Jew and Gentile, but we are all Israel, one body of Christ and one Lord, the Saviour of all the earth. Those who were before not His people, will now be His people.

Ephesians 4:4-6
  • "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
  • One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
  • One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
So I believe that Zechariah 14:8 is primarily addressing "that" mystery that is revealed here, namely, that salvation is going forth to all the world, and is not primarily just for the Jews. And the kingdom of Israel is extended to the whole world so that both the former and latter sea is nourished by these living waters that go out from Jerusalem.

Summer and Winter:

Zechariah 14:8
  • "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."
My understanding of this is that this water flowing "in summer and winter" illustrates that the living waters flow out of Jerusalem continually, in season and out. For example, it is not dried up by the heat of the summer sun, neither frozen over by the winter cold. The context to me illustrates that it is waters that will continually flow to the sea (daily/continual sacrifice) to give life to God's people. The seasons may change, but the living waters will continually flow. Just something to think about.

His Feet upon the Mount of Olives

Zechariah is more concerned with His coming to earth Spiritually, and planting His feet on Mount Zion in judgment. And the mountain did remove, and the remnant of the people did flee, and the valley was their path to freedom. It was the escape of the remnant of the fall of Old Testament Congregation from God's executed judgments upon his congregation for rejection of Messiah the Prince. For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion. The zeal of the LORD of hosts has done this.

Matthew 26:30-32
  • "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
  • Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
  • But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."
It is a literal precursor of the Spiritual judgment of Christ that the remnant of the old testament congregation may escape, and indeed consequently the judgment of the people there as God leaves them desolate and takes the Kingdom Representative from them. The cleaving of the mountain (Kingdom - Fall of Old Testament Congregation) to the east and west that God's people may escape His judgment.

Allow me to explain...the Bible "is" a Spiritual book, not a seismologist's ledger. God's not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make the point about the cleaving of the Kingdom that a way is made for the remnant to escape.

Zechariah 14:4
  • "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
Matthew 17:20
  • "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom He Christ spoiled, bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel. It is the faith of Christ that moves this mountain, and the mountain in view is not a physical mountain, but a spiritual one. Mountains in God's Word represent KINGDOMS. And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, and that the violence took by force. This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant to escape. The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast into the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross. The people of the old testament congregation has rejected Christ. Even so, the stone the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. Thus, even though the mountain was divided (the Kingdom didn't stand - fall of old testament congregation), its power and rule taken away from Israel, the great valley was created for the remnant that escaped from old testament congregation into new testament congregation where Christ now rule since the Cross. Remember, Christ told the Jews to destroy this Temple and in three days he will rise it again. The New Testament Congregation is now being rebuilt by Christ!

The eyes shall consume away in their holes

Have you let God define His own terms, or have you "read into" these scriptures a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb AS IF that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment?

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
It says "plague", not a nuclear blast. See that word plague? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or televangelist prognosticators! We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast. If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion creating spectacular damage, He would have said that. He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. In other words, speculations! Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations as premillennialists/preterists do. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagued as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define the loss of eyes as illustrated in God's word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination. God is talking about the judgment of his old testament congregation, the Jews, who have rejected Messiah the Prince.

Eye consumed = spiritual blindness. Remember the "blindness is happening to Israel?"
Tongue consumed = loss of prophecy. They no longer witness/testify on behalf of God's kingdom.
Flesh consumed = reverse of flesh given to dry bones, Ezekiel 37.

Something to think about.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I also like to add that Zechariah 14 describes the great conflict or warfare of God's congregation (Jerusalem) and how her enemies bring her by force into captivity (Matthew 11:12). It explains how the coming of Christ ends the warfare and brings comfort to Jerusalem by setting her captives free and judging her enemies.

The language of "dividing the spoil" in the midst of Jerusalem is to signify the people (who are the spoil) being taken by the enemy. All these descriptive prophesies of Zechariah chapter 14 must be understood symbolically. The enemy took the spoil of the kingdom (which were God's people) and the Lord Jesus Christ brings restoration by defeating them and freeing the spoil from this enemy. Christ spoke of this in His parable about His kingdom, His defeat of the ruler Satan and His binding and spoiling of that house.

Matthew 12:25-29
  • "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
  • And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
  • And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
  • But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  • Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
As we talked before about this lesson Christ taught, He said that if He had cast out Satan by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God had come unto them. Satan is the enemy, this strong man illustrated here in this parable, and his spoil are those whom Christ came to release from bondage under Satan. But first Satan had to be bound. The same Kingdom that Christ said suffered violence and was taken by force by the enemies of God. Jesus took a remnant from those in control of the kingdom, returned the captivity (the spoil), and gave the kingdom to another (Matthew 21:43). All of these things of Zechariah 14, including the gathering of the nations/gentiles against Jerusalem as judgment, the mount of Olives (verses 2-4), the removal of the mountain, the fleeing to the valley, the great earthquake (verses 5-6), the neither light nor dark, the waters flowing from Jerusalem, earthquake and the one king over all the earth (Zechariah 14:7-9), it turning as a plain, Jerusalem again safely inhabited while there is the judgment for her enemies as plagues (Zechariah 10-15), the assemblage of all nations at Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, the holiness to some and judgment to others, and the use of "every pot in Jerusalem and Judah" for sacrifice (Zechariah 16-21), is all part of this prophecy of the coming of Christ and must be understood symbolically.

When Zechariah 14:1 says "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee," that is describing the great conflict or warfare in God's kingdom on earth with the enemies that spoil her, before Christ comes to comfort Jerusalem, spoil the enemies and give the kingdom to others who will bring forth fruits. It speaks of the apostasy and conflict in Israel when Christ came and took the spoil of the enemy. As also Christ Himself taught in Luke chapter 11 when He said that "all that was not with Him were against Him." In other words, they were the enemies that fought against Him.

Luke 11:20-22
  • "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you./i]
  • When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
  • He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

All that was not with Christ were the enemies that were gathered together against Jerusalem. These are they that fought against the Holy City, who were judged of the Lord for doing so, and the remnant enjoyed that prosperous estate promised by the Lord. It was Christ who freed the captivity and restored the Kingdom to Israel. Not as national Israel and Premillennialists dreamed, but as God had always intended.
 
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owly

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Let us know how you get on. I dont know of Sam Waldron but 'A case for Amillennialism' has an appendixed article in the end pages that might help. It's titled, 'Did Christ come back in AD 70?' (page 239) and is subtitled, 'The Problem with Preterism (Full and Partial)

May be what you're looking for?

I've been reading some more on amil, dispensational critiques, and partial preterism. I have Kim's book but had forgotten about that article at the back, so I read it again.

Think I may now hold an amil+ partial-partial-preterist view! i.e. whilst I've been mulling over terms like "the latter days" and "the last days" and sort of understanding their use with the end of that Jewish economy under Rome, I still see the 'age to come' as global in scope (still future).

Did not actually realize the full preterist sees the resurrection (past) as spiritual only.

I do appreciate different writers of the same position bringing up other ways of approaching arguments.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Think I may now hold an amil+ partial-partial-preterist view! i.e. whilst I've been mulling over terms like "the latter days" and "the last days" and sort of understanding their use with the end of that Jewish economy under Rome, I still see the 'age to come' as global in scope (still future).
Have you ever considered the idealist amil view? That's where my view most closely fits.

As for the end of the age being in the future and global in scope, I agree.

The following passage contrasts this temporal age with the eternal age to come:

Luke 20:34-36
34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

In this temporal age, people get married and they die. In the eternal age to come they will not get married and "can no longer die" because "there will be no more death" at that point (Rev 21:4).
 
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mkgal1

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In this temporal age, people get married and they die. In the eternal age to come they will not get married and "can no longer die" because "there will be no more death" at that point (Rev 21:4).
Hi Spiritual Jew :wave: Welcome to the forum.

As far as the mention of ages - you're right about there being a contrast....and that it's a contrast between a temporal age vs the eternal age. But I believe we are in the eternal age....His kingdom *has* come....and as Amils believe, we are in the "already not yet" experience.

The New Testament was written during a transition period (not all amillennials agree on that, however)....but I believe that's the explanation for the NT authors writing they were in "this present age" but referring to "the age to come". As a partial preterist/amil....I believe the "age to come" came when "the former things" of the Mosaic Covenant passed away in 70 AD. The death referred to in Revelation, i believe, was the death that Adam & Eve experienced when first eating of the fruit.

Revelation 21:4
..for the former things have passed away
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Spiritual Jew :wave: Welcome to the forum.

As far as the mention of ages - you're right about there being a contrast....and that it's a contrast between a temporal age vs the eternal age. But I believe we are in the eternal age....His kingdom *has* come....and as Amils believe, we are in the "already not yet" experience.

The New Testament was written during a transition period (not all amillennials agree on that, however)....but I believe that's the explanation for the NT authors writing they were in "this present age" but referring to "the age to come". As a partial preterist/amil....I believe the "age to come" came when "the former things" of the Mosaic Covenant passed away in 70 AD. The death referred to in Revelation, i believe, was the death that Adam & Eve experienced when first eating of the fruit.

Revelation 21:4
..for the former things have passed away

That is Full Preterism. It is banned on this forum. No, we are still living in an evil age on this corrupt earth, where sin, sinners, death, corruption, and Satan are still active. The reality is: experiential perfection has not arrived on this earth. It will arrive at the second coming when this earth and the redeemed are simultaneously delivered from the bondage of corruption by being regenerated. When man fell, creation fell. When man is glorified, creation will be glorified.
 
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owly

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Have you ever considered the idealist amil view?

I think that is Riddlebarger's position? He was the main influence in showing me the Amil position.

What I find interesting in a number of this sub's threads is the Dispensational 'flat' reading of Revelation. In addition to not understanding? the nature of Apocalyptic language in the scriptures.

Vern Poythress' long article on Dispensationalism brings up some good points on this.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think that is Riddlebarger's position? He was the main influence in showing me the Amil position.

What I find interesting in a number of this sub's threads is the Dispensational 'flat' reading of Revelation. In addition to not understanding? the nature of Apocalyptic language in the scriptures.

Vern Poythress' long article on Dispensationalism brings up some good points on this.

Riddlebarger makes a compelling case for Amil Idealism.
 
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mkgal1

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Dkh587

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Question:

what are we to make of the promise to Abraham and his descendants to inherit the land of Canaan?

I believe the heavens and earth will be destroyed when Christ returns.

Is the promise fulfilled already? Was that a future messianic prophecy?
 
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Christian Gedge

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The land promises were progressively fulfilled from Joshua to Solomon. Even after the rebellion the northern kingdom of Israel held on to their territories for several more hundred years.

O Lord God, let your word to David my father be now fulfilled, for you have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth. (2 Chronicles 1:9)

Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life. (1 Kings 4:21)

But we must remember that the main thrust of the Abrahamic covenant was how in him “ALL the nations of the earth would be blessed.” This happened from when the gospel was opened to the Gentiles (Acts 10) so yes, that aspect was Messianic. As of then, all the clauses of the promise given to Abraham were fulfilled.
 
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mkgal1

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what are we to make of the promise to Abraham and his descendants to inherit the land of Canaan?
Abraham seemed to have understood a bigger picture....that God's promises weren't about physical land, but the Kingdom of God:

Hebrews 11:10
Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.
 
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By Sola Scriptura that they interpret scripture by scripture alone, not by secular history, not by archaeologists, not by Josephus, not by consensus, not by Dr. John Walvoord, not by William Tyndale, and not by a pool of physical water that might be in the middle east. Scripture alone interprets scripture. Anything more or less than God's word is "Private Interpretation!"

I, as amillennialist, believe Zechariah 14 was talking about the fall of Old Testament Congregation at Christ's FIRST coming. For example, not coming with full commentary:

Living Water:

Zechariah 14:8
  • "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."
Christ is the living waters that went out from Jerusalem at the Cross. Living waters, by "BIBLICAL" definition, is life imparting to anyone who drinks. We cannot privately interpret living waters to be non-living. Private interpretation (also called personal opinion, and especially literal interpretation) is the error of the ages, and the cornerstone of Premillennialism. We cannot all have our individual personal interpretation of living waters, they must be defined in the confines of Scripture. Defining the living waters by the Bible, we understand that it is the salvation provided by Christ Himself, and sent forth by His church, not H20 flowing from a physical creek in the physical nation of Israel. Physical Sanctuary and water just don't agree with the "whole" of scripture, and must therefore be rejected.I believe that this is talking about Him going forth to Jews and Gentile. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to salvation first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of verse that follows.

Zechariah 14:9
  • "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
I believe this illustrates that there is no longer the division of Jew and Gentile, but we are all Israel, one body of Christ and one Lord, the Saviour of all the earth. Those who were before not His people, will now be His people.

Ephesians 4:4-6
  • "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
  • One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
  • One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
So I believe that Zechariah 14:8 is primarily addressing "that" mystery that is revealed here, namely, that salvation is going forth to all the world, and is not primarily just for the Jews. And the kingdom of Israel is extended to the whole world so that both the former and latter sea is nourished by these living waters that go out from Jerusalem.

Summer and Winter:

Zechariah 14:8
  • "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."
My understanding of this is that this water flowing "in summer and winter" illustrates that the living waters flow out of Jerusalem continually, in season and out. For example, it is not dried up by the heat of the summer sun, neither frozen over by the winter cold. The context to me illustrates that it is waters that will continually flow to the sea (daily/continual sacrifice) to give life to God's people. The seasons may change, but the living waters will continually flow. Just something to think about.

His Feet upon the Mount of Olives

Zechariah is more concerned with His coming to earth Spiritually, and planting His feet on Mount Zion in judgment. And the mountain did remove, and the remnant of the people did flee, and the valley was their path to freedom. It was the escape of the remnant of the fall of Old Testament Congregation from God's executed judgments upon his congregation for rejection of Messiah the Prince. For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion. The zeal of the LORD of hosts has done this.

Matthew 26:30-32
  • "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
  • Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
  • But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."
It is a literal precursor of the Spiritual judgment of Christ that the remnant of the old testament congregation may escape, and indeed consequently the judgment of the people there as God leaves them desolate and takes the Kingdom Representative from them. The cleaving of the mountain (Kingdom - Fall of Old Testament Congregation) to the east and west that God's people may escape His judgment.

Allow me to explain...the Bible "is" a Spiritual book, not a seismologist's ledger. God's not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make the point about the cleaving of the Kingdom that a way is made for the remnant to escape.

Zechariah 14:4
  • "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
Matthew 17:20
  • "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom He Christ spoiled, bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel. It is the faith of Christ that moves this mountain, and the mountain in view is not a physical mountain, but a spiritual one. Mountains in God's Word represent KINGDOMS. And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, and that the violence took by force. This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant to escape. The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast into the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross. The people of the old testament congregation has rejected Christ. Even so, the stone the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. Thus, even though the mountain was divided (the Kingdom didn't stand - fall of old testament congregation), its power and rule taken away from Israel, the great valley was created for the remnant that escaped from old testament congregation into new testament congregation where Christ now rule since the Cross. Remember, Christ told the Jews to destroy this Temple and in three days he will rise it again. The New Testament Congregation is now being rebuilt by Christ!

The eyes shall consume away in their holes

Have you let God define His own terms, or have you "read into" these scriptures a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb AS IF that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment?

Zechariah 14:12
  • "And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."
It says "plague", not a nuclear blast. See that word plague? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or televangelist prognosticators! We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast. If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion creating spectacular damage, He would have said that. He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. In other words, speculations! Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations as premillennialists/preterists do. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary. Thus it will be plagued as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define the loss of eyes as illustrated in God's word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination. God is talking about the judgment of his old testament congregation, the Jews, who have rejected Messiah the Prince.

Eye consumed = spiritual blindness. Remember the "blindness is happening to Israel?"
Tongue consumed = loss of prophecy. They no longer witness/testify on behalf of God's kingdom.
Flesh consumed = reverse of flesh given to dry bones, Ezekiel 37.

Something to think about.

I, as amillennialist offer another way of understanding.

In the opening of the book of Revelation the methodology needed to rightly divide parables is shown .Informing us that not only was it inspired from God but also signified it .The language of parables the poetic tongue of God hiding the gospel meaning so that we can walk by faith the unseen understanding.. .

Thousands in tens or hundreds is used throughout the Bible to indicate a unknow as to whatever is in view. To include time periods or the numbering of people etc. . In that way we are not to be of the number as those who compare themselves by and to themselves and not the word of God. Many dies when David numbered the troops .this showed he was not trusting God not seen.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Thousands years in Revelation 20 used 4 times follows the other passages a unknow .No reason to know when .he will come as thief in the night. We walk by faith the eternal the signified understanding and not by sight the temporal.

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

There are many examples using the word thousand in multiples of ten and a hundred to represent a unknown.
 
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wandering misfit

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I am Amill part preterist. I've read thru the thread and there's some good posts, good points. I remember littlelambofjesus from back in the day.....about as close to being a full preterist I've read @ CF (but I have catching up to do). I have to agree that there are full preterist tendencies in Hoekema's writings. His works are good for educational purposes, but I'd be hard pressed to use his arguments for a partial preterist position. Kim Riddlebarger (and there are others) is a great resource to compare with authors from the Christ Reformed Church or the Protestant Reformed Church. my .02
 
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BABerean2

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I am Amill part preterist. I've read thru the thread and there's some good posts, good points. I remember littlelambofjesus from back in the day.....about as close to being a full preterist I've read @ CF (but I have catching up to do). I have to agree that there are full preterist tendencies in Hoekema's writings. His works are good for educational purposes, but I'd be hard pressed to use his arguments for a partial preterist position. Kim Riddlebarger (and there are others) is a great resource to compare with authors from the Christ Reformed Church or the Protestant Reformed Church. my .02

Dr. Sam Storm's book "Kingdom Come" is also an excellent resource.
Below are some questions and statements which affirm the amill viewpoint.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10


Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?


John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?


Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?


Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…
The New Heavens and New Earth are found at the beginning of the passage, and the end of the curse is found at the end of the passage.
What happens if verse 20 begins with a negative statement? "There will be no more..."


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.





------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A discussion of the three different Millennial Viewpoints on YouTube:



“An Evening of Eschatology – Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism”


Doctorsà Jim Hamilton, Sam Storms, Doug Wilson



 
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5thKingdom

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What does Amillennial mean?

That is a question that many Christians have been asking often. The word millennium is actually from the Latin words [mille], meaning thousand, and [annum], meaning years. In Latin, the article "a" is a negation of any word following it. Thus a-millennial literally means "no millennium," or no thousand years.

In Christian theology, the word is actually a misnomer, because the Amillennarian does in fact believe in the millennial (1000 year) reign of Christ that is prophesied in Scripture. They appreciate that Revelation is a book of imagery, symbols and representations and so see the thousand years is not to be understood as literal, nor that Christ's reign is to be as a physical ruler reigning upon an earthly throne. Rather they believe that the saints' reign with Him on earth Spiritually as ambassadors of a spiritual Kingdom that is situated above as Ephesians 2:6 declares:

Ephesians 2:6
  • "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

What does Amillennial mean then? Well, the word amillennial identifies Christians who believe that the thousand year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 is this spiritual reign of Christ's Kingdom that was instituted on earth by His death and resurrection through the Church. The Amillennarian holds that the kingdom of God is not a carnal or a worldly earth bound kingdom, but it is spiritual and is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the resurrection in Christ and His Kingdom is the SPirit of Christ in them:

Luke 9:60
  • "Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." and His kingdom is the Spirit of Christ in them.

Luke 17:20
  • "The Kingdom of God cometh not by observation"

It is not an earthly kingdom that can be observed, but a Spiritual kingdom where Christ is their King and reigns with them. The Amillennarian (generally speaking) does not believe in a special future salvation plan for National Israel, but rather that Israel is saved the same as any other nation is brought to God. By the faithful promises to the Seed, which is Christ. Their doctrine is not a teaching that the people of Israel have been cast off, but rather that by Israel's fall, the Gentiles have been included among the Jews in God's Covenantal promises

Romans 11:17-18
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."
They do not believe that Christ will set up a future earth bound kingdom, but that Christ has already delivered His people and established a far superior everlasting kingdom:

Colossians 1:13

  • "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
And that He is presently ruling in that very real kingdom. The amillennialist doctrine is characterized by Christians following Scriptures that declares that the saints indeed have a kingdom and that it is the promised kingdom of Christ. They reject any eschatology that an earthly reign from Jerusalem can fulfill God's prophesy that by definition requires an everlasting reign.

Amillennialists teach that Christ's kingdom is not carnal, that is to say, not of the flesh or of this earth where it is readily observable, but rather is clearly stated to be a spiritual principality, built upon spiritual foundations, a Kingdom that is from above, and not below.

Colossians 3:1-2
  • "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek these things which are from above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
  • set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."
Though there are objections where some claim the Amillennarian does not take Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures literally, the truth is that they take Scripture both literally and figuratively, depending upon content, warrant, and context provided by its author. The Amillennial doctrine is that the law is being fulfilled very literally in Christ, not in previous Old Testament shadows, figures, and types that merely looked forward to Him. i.e., the prophecy of the coming of Elijah before Christ was fulfilled literally in John the Baptist coming in the Spirit of Elijah:

Luke 1:17
"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

The prophesied rebuilding and restoration is not of an earthly Sanctuary in the Middle East, but spoke of the Temple where believers are the living stones, with Christ being the chief corner stone of that building. In other words, the prophesied millennial restoration is fulfilled in the administration of the New Testament reign of Christ.

The Amillennarian's high point is their deferring to Scripture in support of all their doctrines, as opposed to using someone's interpretations of Scripture, that is so prevalent in other millennial positions. Amillennialism was the predominant historical Reformed church eschatological position.



Eric,


What an excellent description of he Amillennial position.
The only points I did not see you address are:


(a) the time period WHEN the Amillennial Kingdom ENDS
and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven", also shown
as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast, and also shown as Satan's
"Little Season" on earth, actually BEGINS.


Mat 25:1
Then [at that time] shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven
be likened unto [look like] ten virgins [the last "wheat and tares"],
which took their lamps [took their Gospels], and went forth
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus].


And (b) you could note the Bible clearly teaches the loosening
of Satan to rule during the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
does not begin until AFTER the last Saint has been "sealed" (saved).
Satan is not "loosed" to rule during his "Little Season" (of Rev 20:3),
until AFTER the last Saint is saved. And the 7-Headed Revelation
Beasts do not arise until AFTER the Last Saint has been saved.


This provides some context of what events happen AFTER
the Amillennial Kingdom (of the Church age) is over and AFTER
the "testimony" of the church ("two witnesses") has been"finished"
[Rev 11:7].


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners
of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should
not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree
. And I saw
another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living
God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it
was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth,
neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants
of our God in their foreheads.



(c) the Last Saints, last "wise virgins", must be saved BEFORE the end
of the church age - and BEFORE the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".
It is important to establish the Bible teaches none of the Great Tribulation
(or Revelation Beast) events could occur until AFTER the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way".


2Th 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed
in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only
he who now letteth will let
[the Holy Spirit that now restrains,
shall continue to restrain]
until he be taken out of the way.


(d) You might also have mentioned the revealing of the "Man of Sin"
sitting (ruling) in the "Temple" (the Christian Kingdom) and the actual
appearing of the Lord (which "reveals" this Man of Sin) cannot occur
until AFTER the Great "Falling Away" occurs.


2Th 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
[Christ's Return] shall not come, except there come a
[great] falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed,
[to the Last Saints] the son of perdition; Who opposeth and
exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth [rules] in the temple of God,
[the Great Tribulation Kingdom] shewing himself that he is God.



2Th 2:8
And then [at that time] shall that Wicked [Little Horn/Rev Beast]
be revealed, [to the Last Saints, the "wise virgins"] whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness
of his coming: Even him [the Man of Sin], whose coming [rule] is after
the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,



(e) In fact, the Bible PROMISES these truths (mentioned above)
could not be known (by any previous Saint) until the period called
the "time-of-the-end' [Dan 12:8-10] or the "Season and Time"
[Dan 7:11-12].


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord,
what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way,
Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed [to all the Saints]
till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white,
[Last "wheat" or Saints] and tried; but the wicked [foolish virgins]
shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
but the wise [the Last Saints, or "wise virgins"] shall understand.



(f) In fact, Scripture also PROMISES the Last Saints would PREACH
these mysteries (fulfillment of Daniel's/Great Tribulation prophecies)
while the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound". So this prophecy
has been "revealed" exactly as the Bible PROMISED during
the "time-of-the-end" or the "Season and Time".


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which
the horn spake: I beheld even till the [Revelation] Beast was slain,
and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame [aka, given
to the "Lake of Fire" of Rev 19:20]
As concerning the rest of the beasts,
they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged
for a Season and Time.


(g) It's also important to note that ONLY these Last Saints
["wise virgins"] alive on earth at the time of the Lord's Return
"shall understand" the truth about these EVENTS. That the Bible
PROMISES none other can understand (see Daniel 12:8-10 above)
... sort of like how the Jews could not understand when their "Kingdom"
was taken away and the Christian "Kingdom" began.


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you [Jews], and GIVEN to a nation
bringing forth the fruits thereof [Christians].


(h) So also, the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast does not BEGIN
until the Christian Kingdom (the Amillennial Kingdom) ends and
the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan
could be "loosed" from the Bottomless Pit to RULE
during his "Little Season".


Rev 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received
no kingdom as yet [during the Millennial Kingdom of the Church Age];
but receive power as kings one hour with the [Revelation] Beast.
[during the Great Tribulation or Satan's "Little Season"] These
have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto
the
[Revelation] Beast.


(i) Now, WHY in the world would the "ten virgins" or the "ten horns"
or "ten kings" ever decide to "give their Kingdom" to
the Revelation Beast? The answer is simple:


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to Fulfill His Will, and to agree,
and give their Kingdom unto the [Revelation] Beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.



Jim
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yes, Zechariah 14 has only two possible interpretations IMO (someone may suggest another) and its literal fulfillment has been a major proof text for Premils. Here they are so you might have to take your pick:
  • Strict Literal View
Zechariah 14 will happen in the future and has to be fulfilled literally in all aspects. It will begin at the return of Christ and will be a partial destruction after which the earth will be refurbished and the survivors go into the millennial reign. The end of the world, as described by other prophets, will occur 1000 years after that.
  • Near/Far Fulfillment View
Zechariah 14 is a ‘near/far' fulfillment prophecy. The initial fulfillment was the destruction of Jerusalem by armies in AD70 followed by the spread of the gospel (in symbolic language) throughout the Church age. However this early fulfillment prefigures a final and complete destruction which happens at Christ’s return.

Both are incorrect. This has nothing to do with "physical city of Jersualem" whether its in 70AD or in the future. Rather it is about the CONGREGATION of Israel, the body of Christ, first with the Jews (Israel) before the Cross, and then the Gentiles (Church) after the Cross. The only holy place on this side of the Cross is the New Testament congregation, where Christians are keeping the feast of tabernacles in Christ!

Zechariah 14: The Feast of Tabernacles
 
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