The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

[Ohorseman]

Some think that patriarchy is about power. But I think it is about responsibility and it is the system directed in the Bible. But we have stepped away from patriarchy. Is that a sin and why does the church avoid this topic?

The God-given authority of a man, it has been misused and squandered away. Maybe the smoky ruins of the patriarchy are deserved considering that men have engaged in too many great and terrible wars and men have created bombs that can literally destroy the entire planet. Obviously, men cannot be trusted. The baby boomer generation became most aware of this post World War I and World War II, and especially considering the aftermath of the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. I think our corrupt and terrible power has rendered us afraid of what confronts us in the honest mirror. So we close our eyes and surrender to our sad self-demasculaton. Running the gauntlet we go. Rampant divorce. Immorality. Abortion. And is that great slaughter of the unborn any less brutal than all the great wars combined? No, it is an even greater sin as far as the numbers go. Here are some numbers that will blow your mind:

World War II (the Great War) - 70 to 85 million deaths
All wars in the 20th century - between 108 and 203 million deaths
Abortions worldwide since 1980 - 1.5 billion deaths

Looking at these numbers, that means that there have been between 7.38 and 13.88 times more deaths by abortion than by all wars in the 20th century. If such big numbers are too abstract for you, lets just look at some numbers specific to the United States.

All USA wars combined - 1.1 million deaths
Abortions in the USA since Roe v Wade - 62 million deaths
Planned Parenthood since 1970 has killed 8.9 million babies

But with abortions the blood runs down a timid sink rather than in the open streets as in war and nothing goes BOOM. To empower the women to take the lead we must be willing to slaughter the unborn. It is the only way, for abortion is that great equalizer among the sexes. And hooray for Gay Pride. After all, why not, we certainly deserve that for our cowardice and God forsaken ways. The number of women having babies out of wedlock is skyrocketing. The honored place of wife and mother is rapidly being reduced to "my baby's mama", and that's okay just don't interrupt my secret click and scroll on my unusual and delicious digital date. Of course the devil will take our women now! Adam did not protect Eve from the sly serpent. We are no wiser.

As men have shunned their God-given authority and responsibilities, a new power fills the expanding voids and takes over. What is this power? Liberalism. Consumerism. Socialism. Globalism.

Is there anything that we can do, or will only the Second Coming put things in order?

My art - The Second Coming

 

[SigurdReginson]

Just curious, but where on earth did you get the number that there's been 1.5b abortions since 1980?... There's only 7.6b people on earth. Most people on the planet would all have to have abortions with numbers that high.

 

[bèlla]

Leadership requires personal integrity and maturity. To suppose all men are capable of operating in that mantle responsibly is false. We saw grave abuses in the past well before society reached this point. And a lot of them were Christians.

Power is seductive and corruptive for most. It must be subdued by God and utilized according to His principles and the Spirit’s input. While I saw healthy examples of patriarchy growing up, I’m beginning to think that time has come and gone.

The mutual recognition of strengths and weaknesses and shared commitment for togetherness and growth may be what’s required at this juncture.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Ohorseman]

Just curious, but where on earth did you get the number that there's been 1.5b abortions since 1980?... There's only 7.6b people on earth. Most people on the planet would all have to have abortions with numbers that high.

Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973

 

[SigurdReginson]

Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973

Ah. Your source states 1.6b abortions.

Well, let's do the math here. In 1980 the population was 4.4b. Now, it's 7.6b. 3.2b people have been incorporated into the planet's population since then. 1.6b abortions would account for a third of all potential births since then, it seems.

I get the feeling your source is trying to manipulate data in a very dishonest way. I'd be very cautious before buying whatever it is they're trying to sell...

 

[Ohorseman]

Leadership requires personal integrity and maturity. To suppose all men are capable of operating in that mantle responsibly is false. We saw grave abuses in the past well before society reached this point. And a lot of them were Christians.

Power is seductive and corruptive for most. It must be subdued by God and utilized according to His principles and the Spirit’s input. While I saw healthy examples of patriarchy growing up, I’m beginning to think that time has come and gone.

The mutual recognition of strengths and weaknesses and shared commitment for togetherness and growth may be what’s required at this juncture.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

No doubt men lack integrity and maturity... and do terrible things, i.e. atomic bombs. But we now take more lives by abortion than war. The world is running as far as it can from patriarchy... and Christians are following. That said, it's not the world's standard. It's ours, and we ignore it.

You say, "...beginning to think that time has come and gone." What, like marriage being only between a man and a women - come and gone, like that?

I post here because I don't understand some things. But, patriarchy is not adverse to "mutual recognition of strengths and weaknesses and shared commitment for togetherness and growth" . In fact, it depends on it.

 

[Ohorseman]

Ah. Your source states 1.6b abortions.

Well, let's do the math here. In 1980 the population was 4.4b. Now, it's 7.6b. 3.2b people have been incorporated into the planet's population since then. 1.6b abortions would account for a third of all potential births since then, it seems.

I get the feeling your source is trying to manipulate data in a very dishonest way. I'd be very cautious before buying whatever it is they're trying to sell...

If you disagree with the numbers, fine. Instead of looking at the whole pie, just eat a slice here, and you will know what kind of pie it is. In other words, just look at the numbers in the USA. Abortion kills more than war is the point and no manipulation of the numbers one way or the other can get away from that fact.

I'm meaning to discuss patriarchy as set forth in the Bible and what Bible-believing Christians should think and do... not quibble with an atheist about the numbers, LOL.

 

[bèlla]

The world is running as far as it can from patriarchy... and Christians are following. That said, it's not the world's standard. It's ours, and we ignore it.

There's no patriarchy without a woman and few are willing to step into that position. They don't want to be led by men. They want a co-pilot.

What, like marriage being only between a man and a women - come and gone, like that?

Patriarchy is waning. There's not enough women to meet the demand. There are more secular and Christian men seeking the same than women willing to provide it.

~bella

 

[Paidiske]

The idea that abortion is the price of women's equality is one I find highly questionable. It sounds more like an excuse to keep depriving women of opportunity.

 

[Ohorseman]

There's no patriarchy without a woman and few are willing to step into that position. They don't want to be led by men. They want a co-pilot.



Patriarchy is waning. There's not enough women to meet the demand. There are more secular and Christian men seeking the same than women willing to provide it.

~bella

All true. But I would say that, at least in the West, patriarchy is not waning... it has waned... gone! And women not willing "to step into that position"... that is counter to the teachings in the Bible. And men not having the "integrity and maturity" to take on their responsibilities... that is also counter to the teaching in the Bible. So, are both men and women sinning by this? That's my question... but we are talking semantics and disagreeing with numbers here. Maybe I asked this in the wrong part of the forum.

 

[Paidiske]

It's not a sin to work to dismantle a system which quenches the God-given potential of half the population.

 

[SigurdReginson]

If you disagree with the numbers, fine. Instead of looking at the whole pie, just eat a slice here, and you will know what kind of pie it is. In other words, just look at the numbers in the USA. Abortion kills more than war is the point and no manipulation of the numbers one way or the other can get away from that fact.

I'm meaning to discuss patriarchy as set forth in the Bible and what Bible-believing Christians should think and do... not quibble with an atheist about the numbers, LOL.

Hmmm... For the sake of not derailing the thread I'll leave your comments where they lay; not sure you'd be interested in anything else an atheist such as myself would have to contribute, anyway.

Though in case you are interested, you might want to look into the United Nations. Preventing another catastrophe like WW2, and reducing wars altogether, is kind of the reason it was established. Doesn't really have much to do with patriarchies, though, especially since men still run much of the world.

 

[Ohorseman]

It's not a sin to work to dismantle a system which quenches the God-given potential of half the population.

I agree with that 100%. Such systems should be dismantled. But is it a sin for Christians to not organize our families and Church communities in a way to where the man is the head?

 

[Paidiske]

I agree with that 100%. Such systems should be dismantled. But is it a sin for Christians to not organize our families and Church communities in a way to where the man is the head?

I would say the opposite. Systematically depriving women of leadership, agency and opportunity in the church and the home would be the sin.

 

[bèlla]

All true. But I would say that, at least in the West, patriarchy is not waning... it has waned... gone! And women not willing "to step into that position"... that is counter to the teachings in the Bible.

Leaders must have vision and an ability to craft a course from start to finish. The testament of his leadership is crossing the finish line. Does he drop the ball or bring it home? You won't climb in the boat if you don't believe he'll bring you to shore. If you question his capacity you'll back out, take the helm, or steer with him.

That's your dilemma. You can't lead anyone who doesn't believe in you. If they don't have an ability to follow or a want to surrender to your direction; the boat is motionless. Wanting patriarchy won't offset the reality that women feel otherwise. They want autonomy.

And men not having the "integrity and maturity" to take on their responsibilities... that is also counter to the teaching in the Bible. So, are both men and women sinning by this? That's my question... but we are talking semantics and disagreeing with numbers here. Maybe I asked this in the wrong part of the forum.

Incompetency won't win brownie points. If you want someone to buy into your vision you must present a compelling argument. Do you hand you money to everyone who wants to manage it? Heck no! You seek the most qualified party.

If men want to be in the driver's seat they must learn what it entails. Whether on the job, church, or volunteer organization. Don't look for a guinea pig and expect to wing it. That's disrespectful to both.

~bella

 

[Ohorseman]

I would say the opposite. Systematically depriving women of leadership, agency and opportunity in the church and the home would be the sin.

If you "say the opposite" then you are opposing all this: BIBLE VERSES ABOUT MAN AS HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD

I agree that it could be a sin to deprive women of leadership, agency and opportunity - but these things should be in the right structure.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not opposing those Scriptures, but I completely disagree with you about what they mean.

 

[Ohorseman]

If men want to be in the driver's seat they must learn what it entails. Whether on the job, church, or volunteer organization. Don't look for a guinea pig and expect to wing it. That's disrespectful to both.

~bella

But that's the problem: men don't "want to be in the driver's seat". Even though the Bible teaches that he should. That's the sin I'm talking about. Yes, it is incompetency. But more than that, it is sin.

 

[Ohorseman]

I'm not opposing those Scriptures, but I completely disagree with you about what they mean.

I know, that's a lot of verses. And there are more even. Just pick one of the obvious ones and explain to me what you mean, please. How would we understand them differently? They are so plain.

 

[Paidiske]

I know, that's a lot of verses. And there are more even. Just pick one of the obvious ones and explain to me what you mean, please. How would we understand them differently? They are so plain.

Well, take the first one. Wives, submit to your husbands.... Except they leave out the part immediately before that; Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. The submission or subjection was never meant to be one-sided or only wives to husbands, but mutual and both to each.

This is not a mandate for men to control or dominate women, but for mutuality in life.