someone asked "At what point is one without the Holy Spirit?"

[Daniel Marsh]

Hebrews 6:4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

 

[rockytopva]

What also is missing... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

 

[Clare73]

Hebrews 6:4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

The situation in Hebrews (6:4-6), where they were considering returning to Judaism because of the persecution by their families for being Christian, and thereby rejecting the sacrifice of Christ for their sin, is not the same situation as here.

Unless there is a rejection of Christ involved, this person can come back, and some have.

 

[GraceBro]

Hebrews 6:4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

If a person is born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ, they cannot lose the Holy Spirit because God is no longer counting our sins against us (2 Corinthians 5:19; Romans 4:8; Hebrews 10:17-18, etc). Besides, what is "leaving the way of Christ?" You are either in Christ, spiritually alive to God or not in Christ, spiritually dead to Him. People may be trapped in sin, left a church, etc., but that doesn't mean God has left them. He goes with them.

 

[ChetSinger]

I see a difference between wandering away and falling away.

As for wandering away, such brethren can be brought back:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. - James​

As for falling away, which I understand as turning against the faith, I think the writer of Hebrews seems genuinely concerned that it can't be undone.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hebrews 6:4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

Hello Daniel, I believe that those being spoken of here were 1st Century Jewish ~almost~ Christians. Like those spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-27, they were part of visible church back then and had experienced ("tasted", "partaken", been "enlightened", etc.) many of the benefits/blessings that church has to offer.

They knew who the Lord Jesus really was (were enlightened), that He was the Messiah, but they continued to reject Him as such (even with that knowledge) and turned back to Judaism instead. For them (and others like them even today), those who "go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth" about Jesus, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgment" .. Hebrews 10:27-28.

This is why I believe that those being discussed (in those passages in Hebrews anyway) were Jewish ~almost~ Christians, because the particular sin that they were guilty of (of knowingly/willfully and continually choosing to commit) was rejection of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It seems to me that those who were/are so enlightened/those who understand exactly who Jesus really is, but who still refuse to accept Him as the Messiah even so, never were, and sadly, never will be, true believers (as there is no other sacrifice for sins than His sacrifice .. cf Hebrews 10:4).

That said, those who God has caused to be born again, who He made new creatures in Christ, and who have been permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, may walk away/into sin for a time, but not forever (as the Holy Spirit will see to it that we will not) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13; Jude 24-25.

God bless you!

--David

Hebrews 6
4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10
26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.​

 

[Clare73]

I see a difference between wandering away and falling away.

As for wandering away, such brethren can be brought back:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. - James​

As for falling away, which I understand as turning against the faith, I think
the writer of Hebrews seems genuinely concerned that it can't be undone.

In Hebrews, it involves rejecting the sacrifice for sin which they once accepted (6:6).
That's a whole 'nother matter. The writer of Hebrews states that it can't be undone.

While they are in that state of rejection of Jesus' sacrifice, they cannot be brought back to repentance.
They are hardened, as they are now (Ro 11:25).

 

[Rescued One]

Hebrews 6:4-6 After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

Those who leave didn't have the Holy Spirit. Besides which we didn't convert people; only God can make the seed grow.

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

 

[pescador]

What also is missing... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

Here is a better translation: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23, NET Bible, v 2.1

If one's behavior doesn't exhibit these qualities then they aren't motivated by the Holy Spirit.

 

[1watchman]

If a person is born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ, they cannot lose the Holy Spirit because God is no longer counting our sins against us (2 Corinthians 5:19; Romans 4:8; Hebrews 10:17-18, etc). Besides, what is "leaving the way of Christ?" You are either in Christ, spiritually alive to God or not in Christ, spiritually dead to Him. People may be trapped in sin, left a church, etc., but that doesn't mean God has left them. He goes with them.

Very true! A "born again" saint as John 3; John 14; etc. is SEALED by the Holy Spirit forever--now and into Heaven. There are many professing Christians in the word who only try to follow some of the teachings of Jesus, and do not see Him as God manifested in the flesh: "the Father and I are one" Jesus said (John 14). We either have Jesus as our Savior and Lord of our life, or we are still in the flesh and with only a religion without God. One might also note Heb. 6:4-6!

 

[GraceBro]

Very true! A "born again" saint as John 3; John 14; etc. is SEALED by the Holy Spirit forever--now and into Heaven. There are many professing Christians in the word who only try to follow some of the teachings of Jesus, and do not see Him as God manifested in the flesh: "the Father and I are one" Jesus said (John 14). We either have Jesus as our Savior and Lord of our life, or we are still in the flesh and with only a religion without God. One might also note Heb. 6:4-6!

As my friend was told by a Rabbi, "We follow the laws that are easiest to obey." Christians are no different. We think giving 10% of our income is tithing when it's not. We think going to church on Saturday is obeying the Sabbath when it is a violation of the law. We say the law is only the Ten Commandments when there are 613 laws. And on and on.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here is a better translation: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23, NET Bible, v 2.1

If one's behavior doesn't exhibit these qualities then they aren't motivated by the Holy Spirit.

To that friend, add II Peter 1 virtues.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

thats so far for an interesting discussion.