Contradictions in the Bible?

[Abide with me.]

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

 

[Dave L]

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Shun those who walk disorderly. Accept those who repent.

 

[royal priest]

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

You don't forgive someone who isn't repenting of the thing to be forgiven.

 

[topher694]

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

These are not contradictory, they are complimentary. Your issue appears to be a misunderstanding of what forgiveness is and what it is not.

 

[St_Worm2]

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

--David

Matthew 18
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”​

 

[topher694]

You don't forgive someone who isn't repenting of the thing to be forgiven.

And this is another example of misunderstanding of forgiveness

 

[topher694]

Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong. This is because forgivness isn't about them, it's about you. It is saying, "I'm not going to let what they did negatively impact me any longer". It removes the power they have over you.

What many here are doing is confusing Forgiveness with is reconciliation. You must forgive to reconcile, but you don't have to reconcile to forgive.

 

[Clare73]

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.
I believe the parable goes on to say that the master (God) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured (hell?) "This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"
So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Mt 18 treats of offenses:
1) scandalizing, stumbling others (1-9),
2) love recovering the stumbled (10-14),
3) love handling the sin of a brother for the sake of recovery (15-19),
4) mercy, forgiveness of offenses against you (21-35).

Your question regards the difference between 3) and 4).

In 3), the issue is dealing with sin in the church body which will not be repented of. Open sin cannot remain in the church body.
The member is to be excommunicated so that he will correct his sin and can be recovered, brought back into the body.

In 4), the issue is personal offense, not open sin tolerated in the body as in 3), which open sin can stumble the whole body (1Co 5:1-5, 12-13).

 

[St_Worm2]

Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong.

Hello Topher694, I rarely disagree with what you have to say, but what you just said doesn't seem to line up with what the Bible says. For instance, the Lord Jesus told us this by command,

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, ~saying, ‘I repent~,’ forgive him.”
​

This passage (and others like it) are concerned with "forgiveness", not reconciliation, yes? (certainly not directly anyway)

This is because forgiveness isn't about them, it's about you. It removes the power they have over you.

The Lord Jesus doesn't tell us to forgive those who have sinned against us so that we can "feel better" and/or feel better about ourselves, rather, He tells us to "rebuke" them, yes, for ~their~ good (and hopefully, for ours as well).

Where does the Bible/Christianity ever teach us to look to ourselves/to our own needs, while intentionally choosing to forgo the needs of others, even the needs of those who have hurt us (does the Lord Jesus not tell us Christians to follow in the footsteps of the Father instead, to love & pray for/to seek the good of those who persecute us .. cf Matthew 5:43-45?)

What the Lord commands us to do 'before' we offer forgiveness to someone who has sinned against us is to "rebuke" them, 1. to make sure that they know what they've done and how we feel about it and why, and 2. to give them the opportunity then to either repent and seek our forgiveness, or to refuse to do so.

I'm certain that the first part (the truly painful part) of the Lord's command to us, to "rebuke" those who have just hurt us (to get the process of forgiveness started), is what we so desperately want to avoid (I am just as guilty of feeling this way and just as guilty of sinning against this command as anyone else is, being the natural people-pleaser that I am, so unfortunately, I get it ), and I believe that's why the church, in general, has taken this modern-day, non-Biblical stance of ~"forgiving" others w/o actually forgiving them~, so that we, the hurt party, can begin to "heal".

But do we ever 'truly' heal when we remain silent, while the dark cloud of dislike/hatred that separates us from the other person remains in place?

So, instead of trying to make ourselves "feel better" (by offering a silent "forgiveness" to those who offend us, w/o regard for them or for the Lord's command to us), we need to ask the Lord to forgive 'us' instead,

1. for disobeying His command to us to begin the process of forgiveness by "rebuke" and
2. for hating the person who hurt us by seeking our good instead of trusting God and seeking their good instead/as well.​

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - the position that we find ourselves in when we've been hurt, combined with the command that we are given by the Lord to begin the process of making things right, can be daunting for us, but that's where trusting the Lord comes in, yes .. e.g. Proverbs 3:5-6.

 

[Clare73]

You don't forgive someone who isn't repenting of the thing to be forgiven.

No such thing is required for personal forgiveness of offenses. See Mt 18:21-22.

We are to forgive as God forgave us, or God will forgive you only as you forgive others. See the Lord's Prayer, Mt 6:12.
Our failure to forgive others shows our ingratitude not only for God's forgiveness of us, but also for the price Jesus paid for that forgiveness.

 

[royal priest]

Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong. This is because forgivness isn't about them, it's about you. It is saying, "I'm not going to let what they did negatively impact me any longer". It removes the power they have over you.

What many here are doing is confusing Forgiveness with is reconciliation. You must forgive to reconcile, but you don't have to reconcile to forgive.

The OP addressed the biblical concept of forgiveness. This is what I was addressing.

 

[royal priest]

No such thing is required for personal forgiveness of offenses. See Mt 18:21-22.

We are to forgive as God forgave us, or God will forgive you only as you forgive others. See the Lord's Prayer, Mt 6:12.
Our failure to forgive others shows our ingratitude not only for God's forgiveness of us, but also for the price Jesus paid for that forgiveness.

God's forgiveness is conditional upon the repentance of the sinner. If we confess sins, then God is faithful to forgive and cleanse. John 1:9

 

[Clare73]

No such thing is required for personal forgiveness of offenses. See Mt 18:21-22.

We are to forgive as God forgave us, or God will forgive you only as you forgive others. See the Lord's Prayer, Mt 6:12.

Our failure to forgive others shows our ingratitude not only for God's forgiveness of us, but also for the price Jesus paid for that forgiveness.

God's forgiveness is conditional upon the repentance of the sinner. If we confess sins, then God is faithful to forgive and cleanse. John 1:9

Yes, God's forgiveness is, but I'm not God, the offender doesn't answer to me, he answers to God and I don't get to make such demands.

 

[royal priest]

Yes, God's forgiveness is, but I'm not God, the offender doesn't answer to me, he answers to God and I don't get to make such demands.

But you said we are to forgive as God forgives

 

[topher694]

Hello Tropher694, I rarely disagree with what you have to say, but what you just said doesn't seem to line up with what the Bible says. For instance, the Lord Jesus told us this by command,

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, ~saying, ‘I repent~,’ forgive him.”
​

This passage (and others like in it) are concerned with "forgiveness", not reconciliation, yes? (certainly not directly anyway)

The Lord Jesus doesn't tell us to forgive those who have sinned against us so that we can "feel better" and/or feel better about ourselves, rather, He tells us to "rebuke" them, yes, for ~their~ good (and hopefully, for ours as well).

Where does the Bible/Christianity ever teach us to look to ourselves/to our own needs alone, while intentionally choosing to forgo the needs of others, even the needs of those who have hurt us (does the Lord Jesus not tell us Christians to follow in the footsteps of the Father instead .. cf Matthew 5:43-45?)

What the Lord commands us to do 'before' we offer forgiveness to someone who has sinned against us is to "rebuke" them, 1. to make sure that they know what they've done and how we feel about it and why, and 2. to give them the opportunity then to either repent and seek our forgiveness, or to refuse to do so.

I'm certain that the first part (the truly painful part) of the Lord's command to us, to "rebuke" those who have just hurt us (to get the process of forgiveness started), is what we so desperately want to avoid (I am just as guilty of feeling this way and just as guilty of sinning against this command as anyone else is, being the natural people-pleaser that I am, so unfortunately, I get it ), and I believe that's why the church, in general, has taken this modern, non-Biblical stance of ~"forgiving" others w/o actually forgiving them~, so that they, the hurt party can begin to heal.

But do we ever truly heal when we remain silent, and the dark cloud of dislike/hatred for the other person remains in place?

So, instead of trying to make ourselves "feel better" (by offering a silent "forgiveness" to those who offend us w/o regard for them or for the Lord's command to us), we need to ask the Lord to forgive 'us' instead,

1. for disobeying His command to us to begin the process of forgiveness by "rebuke" and
2. for hating the person who hurt us by seeking our good instead of trusting God and seeking their good instead.​

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - the position that we find ourselves in when we've been hurt, combined with the command that we are given by the Lord to begin the process of making things right, can be daunting, but that's where trusting the Lord comes in, yes .. e.g. Proverbs 3:5-6.

I don't have time for a detailed reply right now, but consider this: are we supposed to hold on to anger, bitterness and hurt until someone apologizes to us? What if they never do? That gives them power over us in areas we should be submitted to Jesus and Him alone. What if it is impossible for them to repent because they've passed on? Are we now stuck with this the rest of our life? This thinking depowers the cross and it's not healthy. The problem your having is in how you are reading it, the phrasing can be a bit misleading.

 

[Clare73]

No such thing is required for personal forgiveness of offenses. See Mt 18:21-22.

We are to forgive as God forgave us, or God will forgive you only as you forgive others. See the Lord's Prayer, Mt 6:12.

Our failure to forgive others shows our ingratitude not only for God's forgiveness of us, but also for the price Jesus paid for that forgiveness.

But you said we are to forgive as God forgives

Did I?
.

 

[royal priest]

Did I?

Post #10

 

[Clare73]

Post #10

See Post #16.

 

[royal priest]

See Post #16.

God forgave us when we turned to Him. He expects us to do the same to others.

 

[Clare73]

God forgave us when we turned to Him. He expects us to do the same to others.

God forgave us everything forever when we believed in Jesus Christ.