From what I understand because I read the Bible

67_Reasons

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Not my will but the Lord's "Please correct me if you think I'm misguided".

I heard a radio preacher say to me that no one has seen heaven and that NDEs are lies, but I feel contested to this theory not because I feel like it's half right and half wrong at the same time, and here is why;

I'll start with my basics on why I think he's half wrong; In this world we have five realms. Our current place, the "Old Earth", The Ethereal Heaven "We die and go to Heaven", the new earth "John's heaven", Hades "Or Erebus", and the second death "Fire of hell".

He would have me think no one has been to heaven or hell and come back to talk about it, but he didn't take into account that the brothers of Lazarus have been mentioned in the books of Luke and John, while one had seen the ethereal realms of Erebus and the Heaven we will know when we die;

And I will complicate why I think he's half right; because of a book named Revelation where John speaks about a new earth, "No one has seen the new earth". Therefore no one has seen the realm of heaven. "Nothing added or taken of course".

When I try to decipher a verse in my Bible, I start with a semi-complicated passage like 1st Corinthians 13, "Love is patient love is kind", then I look at John's epistle in my favorite verse "God is Love", Then I go back to Corinthians and think 1st John 4:16, then it's "God is patient God is kind". You see what I did here? But If you go back also to Psalm 103:8-9 You basically find the same argument in plain writing in David's text.

Cool stuff there, I don't lean on my own understanding without applying scripture when it comes to what I learn from all sources, then I discern what I've learned and put it into a solid rock understanding, therefore it's understandable without the complication of "Is God involved"...
 

67_Reasons

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Where do you get the five realms premise?
I read Revelation as what was what other radio personalities have said we all come back in the end, and I believe this case with some sensitivity because I believe there are the afterlife realms as well as aftertime realms. We must understand what has been taught to us if we are needing help with the fear of the afterlives, because I've learned not to.
 
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NDE and "visions" are inherently difficult to prove or disprove. I would take any and all of them with a large dose of salt. People from many different faith traditions have claimed to see Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana, whatever, it is not just a Christian or Jewish thing. I would find them interesting to read as a curiosity, but I would also not base any beliefs on them if it is outside of what is already in scripture.
 
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Not my will but the Lord's "Please correct me if you think I'm misguided".

I heard a radio preacher say to me that no one has seen heaven and that NDEs are lies, but I feel contested to this theory not because I feel like it's half right and half wrong at the same time, and here is why;

I'll start with my basics on why I think he's half wrong; In this world we have five realms. Our current place, the "Old Earth", The Ethereal Heaven "We die and go to Heaven", the new earth "John's heaven", Hades "Or Erebus", and the second death "Fire of hell".

He would have me think no one has been to heaven or hell and come back to talk about it, but he didn't take into account that the brothers of Lazarus have been mentioned in the books of Luke and John, while one had seen the ethereal realms of Erebus and the Heaven we will know when we die;

And I will complicate why I think he's half right; because of a book named Revelation where John speaks about a new earth, "No one has seen the new earth". Therefore no one has seen the realm of heaven. "Nothing added or taken of course".

When I try to decipher a verse in my Bible, I start with a semi-complicated passage like 1st Corinthians 13, "Love is patient love is kind", then I look at John's epistle in my favorite verse "God is Love", Then I go back to Corinthians and think 1st John 4:16, then it's "God is patient God is kind". You see what I did here? But If you go back also to Psalm 103:8-9 You basically find the same argument in plain writing in David's text.

Cool stuff there, I don't lean on my own understanding without applying scripture when it comes to what I learn from all sources, then I discern what I've learned and put it into a solid rock understanding, therefore it's understandable without the complication of "Is God involved"...

Well John the revelator most certainly had a vision of heaven because he saw the Throne of God and the angels fall on their faces in worship of God, and he saw the great multitude no one can number... that's heaven, and he was given a vision of it.

I do think NDE's have to be fully examined, each one... to determine whether what they envisioned was a vision from God, or Satan.

Because I had an NDE, I've had to examine the topic in great detail and determine the matter for myself, and honestly, many I believe to be satanic... so many in fact it's quite easy to dismiss them almost wholesale.

But Satan isn't the only one to operate and interact with man, God can and does too.

I think in the end, we have to look at both the NDE itself, does it point the person to Christ? Or away from the gospel? Is this NDE Scriptural? And what fruit has having this NDE born in the individual as time passes? Are they monetizing the experience? Or have they just been led to the truth of Christ in some way and are now fully saved, and into a good Christian faith, or are they chasing some fashionable cult?

It's better however in the long run, to just ignore the phenomenon altogether, because any NDE has far too many scriptural implications to bother sitting around analyzing them in minute detail to determine if they are true... mainly, they are for the one experiencing, and not for anyone else.
 
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...He would have me think no one has been to heaven or hell and come back to talk about it, but he didn't take into account that the brothers of Lazarus have been mentioned in the books of Luke and John...

I think in those it is about Paradise, which is not the same as heaven. I think one good way to understand Bible correctly is to look at what are the original words. For example, word hell can mean Hades or Gehenna and they are not the same thing.

…The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
 
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Der Alte

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I had my first encounter with someone who claimed to have had a NDE in '70 while in an Army advance course prior to returning to Viet Nam for a second tour. He claimed that he had a NDE in an operating room in a clearing station or field hospital in Viet Nam.
I am a Christian and I was very skeptical until 39 years later when I had what was supposed to be a simple 45 minute, go home the same day, laparoscopic hernia repair.
It turned into a 5 hour open surgery which went south. I had acute kidney failure, afibrillation, ileus [bowel obstruction] and sepsis [bacterial infection of the abdominal cavity due to bowel contents leaking.]
Shortly after coming out of surgery I had trouble breathing and was very distressed. Two respiratory techs. came in. They started telling me "Take deep breaths." I struggled to. Suddenly I was calm, no longer distressed but they were saying "You have to breathe. Breathe Mr. "Alter" breathe." At that point I had a brief out of body experience. Then I was back on the bed struggling to breathe.
Now I don't automatically disbelieve NDEs.
 
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67_Reasons

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They started telling me "Take deep breaths." I struggled to. Suddenly I was calm, no longer distressed but they were saying "You have to breathe. Breathe Mr. "Alter" breathe." At that point I had a brief out of body experience. Then I was back on the bed struggling to breathe.
Now I don't automatically disbelieve NDEs.

NDE Is more about what you've witnessed while being unconscious; my example "I was walking around a desert and the wind picked up and I was met by a stranger in a black cowboy suit that told me it wasn't my time yet". There are many accounts of being in wind shortly before meeting a spirit, "assumingly the Holy Ghost". I would've contest this but after my personal experience I find them somewhat justified in their theories. It's even in a song.

Not just you could've died and was in distress and was partially awake...
 
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Der Alte

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NDE Is more about what you've witnessed while being unconscious; my example "I was walking around a desert and the wind picked up and I was met by a stranger in a black cowboy suit that told me it wasn't my time yet". There are many accounts of being in wind shortly before meeting a spirit, "assumingly the Holy Ghost". I would've contest this but after my personal experience I find them somewhat justified in their theories. It's even in a song.
Not just you could've died and was in distress and was partially awake...
What I "saw" was I was above the bed looking down on the backs of the 2 techs and I was not in distress, then suddenly I was back on the bed struggling to breathe.
 
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67_Reasons

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What I "saw" was I was above the bed looking down on the backs of the 2 techs

I'm not saying you're wrong, Just a deeper understanding of the topic. This happens all the time too, as out of body experience is what "our" ghost is experiencing, while the experience is somewhat supernatural its actually not at all just that, but a NDE is what I was explaining to you. Even I have seen myself as I was in a hospital in a separate vision other than what I explained before.
 
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Not my will but the Lord's "Please correct me if you think I'm misguided".
. . . . .
I'll start with my basics on why I think he's half wrong; In this world we have five realms. Our current place, the "Old Earth", The Ethereal Heaven "We die and go to Heaven", the new earth "John's heaven", Hades "Or Erebus", and the second death "Fire of hell".
67_Reasons:

There is no scriptural support for your belief in five realms.

Alter2Ego
 
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Alter2Ego

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Revelation 20:14 - Revelation 21:9

Please explain to me how this would be otherwise? prior to earthly death and prior to the rapture of Revelation?
67_Reasons:

You have yet to present scripture that literally speaks of five realms, but you expect me to explain the impossible to you?

God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible speaks of two realms (the heavenly realm and the earthly realm), and we are informed of this at the very first verse in the entire Bible, as follows:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)

By the way, why did you cite Revelation 20:14 through Revelation 21:9? Those verses say nothing about five realms.

Alter2Ego

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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
 
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67_Reasons

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This thread wasn't even about this topic and you have answered my question with an answer that explains more when read correctly.

In the beginning God did create heaven and earth as one place with unity up until the arrival of sin and death with which divided heaven from earth. Up until Jesus came and died and was resurrected and then told one of his former disciples he was coming back one day to bring everyone back to a new heaven and new earth. When Jesus tells John that he is coming back to bring resurrection to the dead who have died in him and condemn those who were not, these new places aren't even mentioned in genesis up until the arrival of Abraham, or Moses even. God said he will build a new heaven and new earth, that's all that needs to be said here...
 
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Not my will but the Lord's "Please correct me if you think I'm misguided".

I heard a radio preacher say to me that no one has seen heaven and that NDEs are lies, but I feel contested to this theory not because I feel like it's half right and half wrong at the same time, and here is why;

I'll start with my basics on why I think he's half wrong; In this world we have five realms. Our current place, the "Old Earth", The Ethereal Heaven "We die and go to Heaven", the new earth "John's heaven", Hades "Or Erebus", and the second death "Fire of hell".

He would have me think no one has been to heaven or hell and come back to talk about it, but he didn't take into account that the brothers of Lazarus have been mentioned in the books of Luke and John, while one had seen the ethereal realms of Erebus and the Heaven we will know when we die;

And I will complicate why I think he's half right; because of a book named Revelation where John speaks about a new earth, "No one has seen the new earth". Therefore no one has seen the realm of heaven. "Nothing added or taken of course".

When I try to decipher a verse in my Bible, I start with a semi-complicated passage like 1st Corinthians 13, "Love is patient love is kind", then I look at John's epistle in my favorite verse "God is Love", Then I go back to Corinthians and think 1st John 4:16, then it's "God is patient God is kind". You see what I did here? But If you go back also to Psalm 103:8-9 You basically find the same argument in plain writing in David's text.

Cool stuff there, I don't lean on my own understanding without applying scripture when it comes to what I learn from all sources, then I discern what I've learned and put it into a solid rock understanding, therefore it's understandable without the complication of "Is God involved"...
 
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Not my will but the Lord's "Please correct me if you think I'm misguided".

I heard a radio preacher say to me that no one has seen heaven and that NDEs are lies, but I feel contested to this theory not because I feel like it's half right and half wrong at the same time, and here is why;

I'll start with my basics on why I think he's half wrong; In this world we have five realms. Our current place, the "Old Earth", The Ethereal Heaven "We die and go to Heaven", the new earth "John's heaven", Hades "Or Erebus", and the second death "Fire of hell".

He would have me think no one has been to heaven or hell and come back to talk about it, but he didn't take into account that the brothers of Lazarus have been mentioned in the books of Luke and John, while one had seen the ethereal realms of Erebus and the Heaven we will know when we die;

And I will complicate why I think he's half right; because of a book named Revelation where John speaks about a new earth, "No one has seen the new earth". Therefore no one has seen the realm of heaven. "Nothing added or taken of course".

When I try to decipher a verse in my Bible, I start with a semi-complicated passage like 1st Corinthians 13, "Love is patient love is kind", then I look at John's epistle in my favorite verse "God is Love", Then I go back to Corinthians and think 1st John 4:16, then it's "God is patient God is kind". You see what I did here? But If you go back also to Psalm 103:8-9 You basically find the same argument in plain writing in David's text.

Cool stuff there, I don't lean on my own understanding without applying scripture when it comes to what I learn from all sources, then I discern what I've learned and put it into a solid rock understanding, therefore it's understandable without the complication of "Is God involved"...


Dear_67Reasons,
Hell/Hades is the "unseen" place of the dead who remain lost. Those said to be there are dead and have no consciousness. It is not a literal place, just a spiritual state of being.

Paradise is a place of the dead for Jews who were faithful but are not yet sanctified by the truth. They are dead, too and have no consciousness. It is not a literal place, just a spiritual state of being. As for the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, it is a PARABLE. Scripture says that Christ ONLY taught in parables to everyone except His Apostles in a few instances. This story is no exception. Parables use spiritual symbols to hide their true meaning. Christ taught this way so that no one, especially the Jews, could understand what He was saying. If He taught in words that mankind would understand, Paul said they would not have crucified Him. He also taught in this spiritual language so that only to whom He gives spiritual "eyes and ears" will be able to understand His teachings. In this age, only the Elect (the First Fruits) are given this ability. All others who are either unbelievers or Called Out believers who are not chosen, will not be able to understand. Because of this spiritual blindness, the Called Out believers will be deceived by Satan who masquerades as Christ. This will cause them to fall away and be broken (spiritually die/become desolate).

The Elect, who dwell in heaven are said to be "asleep" after they die. They are dead, too and have no consciousness.

All groups are awaiting the resurrection FROM the dead. No one has ever died and seen anything after death. All those kind of stories are either lies or tricks of the human mind under stress.

Since the resurrection from the dead is still yet future, even people like Peter and Paul are remain asleep (dead).

Without the resurrection from the dead, no one would ever live again.

Though you did not mention it, this relates to your subject:

BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL

When we die, our "soul" dies. When we are resurrected, we are a living soul again. The soul is our individual sense of being - it is who we are, separate from all others.

Also, in Revelation, John did not see "heaven". He saw a physical symbol that represents a spiritual truth. Heaven is not a place, it is a spiritual state of being that is acceptable to God. God is said to dwell there but in fact, God dwells everywhere. Also, once a person is saved, we become God's temple where is Spirit lives. The Elect, after they are saved are said to be dwelling in heaven while they are still alive. That is because the Elect have God's Spirit in them. Those who are Called Out but not chosen are said to be dwelling on the earth. All unbelievers are said to dwell in the sea. Each spiritual state as it moves higher, moves closer to God. But these words of sea, earth and heaven are all physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.

Also, the Lake of Fire is not a place of physical torment. It too, like most of scripture (and especially Revelation) are spiritual symbols. God uses the physical to describe the spiritual. The spirit world is between our ears so to speak. It cannot be seen with human eyes.

"Fire" is a spiritual symbol that represent the judgment of Christ - nothing more. All mankind must be judged to learn the righteousness of God. Judgment starts now with Christ's Elect and ends in the final age for everyone else. Judgment is for our benefit. And from that judgment, mankind's spiritual impurities will be burned away leaving only the New Man in Christ who never sins. From then on, all mankind will be dwelling in heaven (state of being) and will never sin or die again.

Joe
 
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Der Alte

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Dear_67Reasons,
Hell/Hades is the "unseen" place of the dead who remain lost. Those said to be there are dead and have no consciousness. It is not a literal place, just a spiritual state of being.
Paradise is a place of the dead for Jews who were faithful but are not yet sanctified by the truth. They are dead, too and have no consciousness. It is not a literal place, just a spiritual state of being. As for the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, it is a PARABLE. Scripture says that Christ ONLY taught in parables to everyone except His Apostles in a few instances. This story is no exception. Parables use spiritual symbols to hide their true meaning. Christ taught this way so that no one, especially the Jews, could understand what He was saying. If He taught in words that mankind would understand, Paul said they would not have crucified Him. He also taught in this spiritual language so that only to whom He gives spiritual "eyes and ears" will be able to understand His teachings. In this age, only the Elect (the First Fruits) are given this ability. All others who are either unbelievers or Called Out believers who are not chosen, will not be able to understand. Because of this spiritual blindness, the Called Out believers will be deceived by Satan who masquerades as Christ. This will cause them to fall away and be broken (spiritually die/become desolate).
The Elect, who dwell in heaven are said to be "asleep" after they die. They are dead, too and have no consciousness.
All groups are awaiting the resurrection FROM the dead. No one has ever died and seen anything after death. All those kind of stories are either lies or tricks of the human mind under stress.
Since the resurrection from the dead is still yet future, even people like Peter and Paul are remain asleep (dead).
Without the resurrection from the dead, no one would ever live again.
Though you did not mention it, this relates to your subject:
BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL
When we die, our "soul" dies. When we are resurrected, we are a living soul again. The soul is our individual sense of being - it is who we are, separate from all others.
Also, in Revelation, John did not see "heaven". He saw a physical symbol that represents a spiritual truth. Heaven is not a place, it is a spiritual state of being that is acceptable to God. God is said to dwell there but in fact, God dwells everywhere. Also, once a person is saved, we become God's temple where is Spirit lives. The Elect, after they are saved are said to be dwelling in heaven while they are still alive. That is because the Elect have God's Spirit in them. Those who are Called Out but not chosen are said to be dwelling on the earth. All unbelievers are said to dwell in the sea. Each spiritual state as it moves higher, moves closer to God. But these words of sea, earth and heaven are all physical symbols which represent spiritual truths.
Also, the Lake of Fire is not a place of physical torment. It too, like most of scripture (and especially Revelation) are spiritual symbols. God uses the physical to describe the spiritual. The spirit world is between our ears so to speak. It cannot be seen with human eyes.
"Fire" is a spiritual symbol that represent the judgment of Christ - nothing more. All mankind must be judged to learn the righteousness of God. Judgment starts now with Christ's Elect and ends in the final age for everyone else. Judgment is for our benefit. And from that judgment, mankind's spiritual impurities will be burned away leaving only the New Man in Christ who never sins. From then on, all mankind will be dwelling in heaven (state of being) and will never sin or die again.

Joe
The problem with this is, from Luke 16:1 through 17:1 Jesus' primary audience was His disciples.
Luke 16:1
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luke 16:14
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luke 17:1
1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
If Jesus was talking to the Jews, John would not have written in 16:14 "the Pharisees also, ... heard all these things:"
All of the ECf who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Irenaeus, [120-202 AD], [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-, on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.


 
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