Is trump representing the Christian vote pushing Americans away from the church?

[Davist]

Article: 2020 Faith Vote Reflects 2016 Patterns

I read this article, thought it had some interesting bits, so I thought I'd share. Here's some highlights:

1. "A notable fact in 2016 was that exit polls showed about 80% of white evangelical Christians supported Trump..."
2. "I think the Democrats should stop thinking about white evangelicals entirely," Burge says. "And I think the Republicans should take them for granted. At some point, it's like, what can you do to make them change — on the Democratic side or the Republican side?"
3. When the pro-Biden "Not Our Faith" group was organized, Duford joined it. "My goal," she says, "was more of an encouragement to the droves of people who are leaving the church because of the hypocrisy they've seen."

On point one, later in the article they note the rising number of people leaving the church. I wonder how this issue of politics driving people away from the church is being addressed by churches in general, or if this issue is being addressed at all. If you have a friend who says they've left the church due to hypocrisy in how Christians vote verses what they preach, what do you even say?

On point two, it's sort of concerning that Democrats should feel that Christians are a lost cause, but I find it even more concerning that Republicans can feel that they have the Christian vote regardless of what they do. While this is Burge's opinion, this definitely appears accurate considering how the current administration is being run. Trump appears to be able to get away with a lot, simply because he's the "pro-life" candidate. I also wonder how this issue may be addressed in the church.

On point three, I appreciate the effort to highlight that Christianity isn't necessarily tied to support for Trump, but the fact that the exit polls showed 80% of white Christians did, can one still argue that? Is there a point where a group identity can be hijacked and its original meaning changed by an overwhelming majority with a new direction? If yes... I don't even know how to proceed. If no, how are we to regain credibility to those leaving?

Thanks for reading.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Before Jerry Falwell, liberal clergy and liberal theologians often criticized evangelicals for not being political. "All they do is preach what they call the gospel. They ignore everything else."

As far the exit polls you cite, Christians are free to vote (or not) as their conscience dictates - and the polls only count those who voted. It's not so much they liked Trump as it is they really, really didn't like Hillary Clinton...

 

[bekkilyn]

The Christ-free "Christianity" of GOP politics will never gain or regain credibility and the "pro-life" movement is a complete farce that everyone else besides them can see right through. I don't know if "Christianity" as a religion can be salvaged in the U.S. unless it is truly separated from right-wing extremist politics, and since it doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon, those folks ain't coming back and who can blame them.

 

[Albion]

Much too much is being made of a rather simple development.

Christian churches and beliefs have been under pressure in recent years, and most of the pressure has come from liberals and their supporters. Trump took meaningful steps to promote freedom of religion (or to safeguard that Constitutional right, we might better say), to fight abortion, and to restrain governments from eroding the rights of churches, minsters, and nuns. He also helped make being a Christian and talking like one in public seem normal again in our country.

In summary, he allied himself with Christians and they appreciated it. There's hardly anything about that development which should amaze or perplex anybody.

 

[Davist]

It's not so much they liked Trump as it is they really, really didn't like Hillary Clinton...

Is Trump really an improvement over Clinton? It seems like a case of choosing the worst of two options. Clinton definitely has issues, but I don't think we'd be talking about insurrection right now if she was president. It would be one thing if we were seeing large numbers of Christians not voting at all, but Christians are the one group who are reliably getting out there to vote, at least from what I see.

Additionally, Trump was not the only candidate. There were several other Republican candidates, but Trump was the one who won the nomination for his party. Christians voted for him essentially twice, once as the Republican nominee, then again as president, so Clinton is not the only factor here.

 

[Davist]

In summary, he allied himself with Christians and they appreciated it. There's hardly anything about that development which should amaze or perplex anybody.

Would you say insurrection and the downplaying of the impact of COVID-19 resulting in numerous lives needlessly lost were worth those things? Would you say tying yourself to a candidate who is blatantly racist is worth those things? Is the only way to obtain those things through support of Trump. I would answer no to all of these questions.

I would even say it's debatable if he even did achieve any of those things you mentioned, but let's say he did for sake of argument. Was it worth it?

 

[Albion]

Would you say insurrection and the downplaying of the impact of COVID-19 resulting in numerous lives needlessly lost were worth those things?

Political myths like those you recounted here didn't fool as many people as you might have thought they should have.

 

[bekkilyn]

Even the Joint Chiefs (rightfully) called it sedition and insurrection.

Joint Chiefs Remind U.S. Forces That They Defend The Constitution

 

[Davist]

Political myths like those you recounted here didn't fool as many people as you might have thought they should have.

So you're saying you reject the premise of my argument. Here's why I believe these things:

Trump said he downplayed it: Timeline: How Trump Has Downplayed The Coronavirus Pandemic

If you're saying Wednesday's insurrection is a myth, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Here's one of many examples of his racism: PolitiFact - Donald Trump's racial comments about Hispanic judge in Trump University case

Paul Ryan called his comments "textbook" racist comments.

Expand for me why you dismiss these issues as myth?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Is Trump really an improvement over Clinton?

I won't dignify that question with an answer.

Is the only way to obtain those things through support of Trump.

George Wallace and Pat Buchanan's times have already come and gone, and we can ill afford to wait another generation for someone else. You work with what history gives you.

Additionally, Trump was not the only candidate. There were several other Republican candidates, but Trump was the one who won the nomination for his party. Christians voted for him essentially twice, once as the Republican nominee,

Some did; some didn't. According to their consciences, which Christians are allowed to do...

Even the Joint Chiefs (rightfully) called it sedition and insurrection.

Even? The military brass are part of the state after all...

 

[Davist]

George Wallace and Pat Buchanan's times have already come and gone, and we can ill afford to wait another generation for someone else. You work with what history gives you.

Translation of this comment appears to be: "Yes. The ends do justify the means." I can't jump on board with that sentiment. Additionally, Trump has lost Republicans the presidency for this generation through his abysmal performance, so I guess we'll be waiting for another generation for a better Republican candidate after all.

According to their consciences, which Christians are allowed to do...

I don't really get why this is thrown around so often. No one is saying Christians aren't allowed to vote for Trump. We're discussing the ramifications of voting for Trump, not whether they're allowed to. Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't absolve you of the responsibility and fallout of your actions.

 

[bekkilyn]

Even? The military brass are part of the state after all...

Well obviously those who have fallen for the "deep state" conspiracy in all its lizardman goodness are too far gone for reason, but those who simply believe that the "other side" is overreacting by calling the attack on the U.S. Capitol an insurrection *might* think again if they see that the leadership of the U.S. Military is taking it as seriously as it warrants.

 

[mmksparbud]

The fact that Trump has been publicly documented as having cheated on every one of his 3 wives, that he paid his mistresses to sign non-disclosure papers, the fact that he openly implied that Marla should get an abortion but then claims to be against abortion, the fact that he publicly has said he groped women grabbing them by the crotch and kissing them even against their will, and leered at pageant girls as young as 13-14 naked because he had the power to do so as he owned the pageants, and they had to be "nice" to him, that a man who has cheated others and refused to pay them for the work they did and laughed about it as a privilege of having money and could keep lawsuits going for years so that they had to just give up, causing many to just file bankruptcy--- all that and probably more we do not know---people call Christianity and follow him as though he is some little god, tarnishes the whole meaning of Christianity. Not to mention when those same so called Christians not only ask for Mike Pence to be hanged, but actually riot, destroy Government property and plan on taking hostages and actually hanging a Vice President that had done no wrong and did all Trump said until Trump asked him to do something illegal---instead of applauding the man for his decency---they planned to hang him. None of this is going to endear anyone to Christianity----not even real Christians!!!

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Translation of this comment appears to be: "Yes. The ends do justify the means."

Translation from what? I was speaking plain English.

Additionally, Trump has lost Republicans the presidency for this generation through his abysmal performance, so I guess we'll be waiting for another generation for a better Republican candidate after all.

I didn't say anything about a Republican - and anyway you don't know that. For all you know, Trump could be coming back to the White House in four years...

I don't really get why this is thrown around so often. No one is saying Christians aren't allowed to vote for Trump. We're discussing the ramifications of voting for Trump, not whether they're allowed to. Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't absolve you of the responsibility and fallout of your actions.

The ramifications of voting for Trump is a Trump presidency, which many people want.

 

[mmksparbud]

Translation from what? I was speaking plain English.



I didn't say anything about a Republican - and anyway you don't know that. For all you know, Trump could be coming back to the White House in four years...



The ramifications of voting for Trump is a Trump presidency, which many people want.

And many more do not---simple math that Trump and his supporters are unable to comprehend.

 

[mindlight]

Article: 2020 Faith Vote Reflects 2016 Patterns

I read this article, thought it had some interesting bits, so I thought I'd share. Here's some highlights:

1. "A notable fact in 2016 was that exit polls showed about 80% of white evangelical Christians supported Trump..."
2. "I think the Democrats should stop thinking about white evangelicals entirely," Burge says. "And I think the Republicans should take them for granted. At some point, it's like, what can you do to make them change — on the Democratic side or the Republican side?"
3. When the pro-Biden "Not Our Faith" group was organized, Duford joined it. "My goal," she says, "was more of an encouragement to the droves of people who are leaving the church because of the hypocrisy they've seen."

On point one, later in the article they note the rising number of people leaving the church. I wonder how this issue of politics driving people away from the church is being addressed by churches in general, or if this issue is being addressed at all. If you have a friend who says they've left the church due to hypocrisy in how Christians vote verses what they preach, what do you even say?

On point two, it's sort of concerning that Democrats should feel that Christians are a lost cause, but I find it even more concerning that Republicans can feel that they have the Christian vote regardless of what they do. While this is Burge's opinion, this definitely appears accurate considering how the current administration is being run. Trump appears to be able to get away with a lot, simply because he's the "pro-life" candidate. I also wonder how this issue may be addressed in the church.

On point three, I appreciate the effort to highlight that Christianity isn't necessarily tied to support for Trump, but the fact that the exit polls showed 80% of white Christians did, can one still argue that? Is there a point where a group identity can be hijacked and its original meaning changed by an overwhelming majority with a new direction? If yes... I don't even know how to proceed. If no, how are we to regain credibility to those leaving?

Thanks for reading.

Internationally Christians were overwhelmingly opposed to Trump because of the perceived racism of his migration policies, greed, views on guns, nationalism and personal unfitness for office, that was ignored in 2016 by Evangelical Americans, because the alternative seemed worse, at the time. He won some credibility for his abortion stand and supreme court justice appointments among some Christians abroad. Domestically most Hispanic and Black Christians voted against him, so the version of Christianity that supported him in the USA seems to be a mainly white working class nationalism. The global church has no problem from this Trump experience but the white American Evangelicals have deep questions to ask:

1) Why were they so easy to deceive over the "stolen" election
2) Why are they so complicit with a lax policy over covid19 that has cost hundreds of thousands of lives
3) Why are they so ready to accept labels like socialist over meaningful attempts to provide comprehensive health care. Isn't caring for the sick a Jesus thing?
4) Why does preserving gun culture matter so much in the age of drones, cyber warfare, missiles and tanks?

Personally I think the Democrats have everything to gain from espousing a sort of European version of Christianity that prioritises looking after the poor, the sick, the old and the environment. It is an opportunity for them to take the moral high ground while the Republicans deal with the great lie that Trumpism became.

 

[mindlight]

The Christ-free "Christianity" of GOP politics will never gain or regain credibility and the "pro-life" movement is a complete farce that everyone else besides them can see right through. I don't know if "Christianity" as a religion can be salvaged in the U.S. unless it is truly separated from right-wing extremist politics, and since it doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon, those folks ain't coming back and who can blame them.

Most Hispanic or Black Christians voted against Trump. Internationally most Christians are hostile to him in my experience. His narcissism, treatment of women and lack of team play internationally being big reasons. This is more a challenge to a certain form of Christian culture that has really lost touch with God in recent years. Personally I would have voted for him, while considering him unfit for office, in 2016 because I thought the Democrat culture was worse at that point. This election I was a Biden supporter from Europe.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So you're saying you reject the premise of my argument. Here's why I believe these things:

Trump said he downplayed it: Timeline: How Trump Has Downplayed The Coronavirus Pandemic

If you're saying Wednesday's insurrection is a myth, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Here's one of many examples of his racism: PolitiFact - Donald Trump's racial comments about Hispanic judge in Trump University case

Paul Ryan called his comments "textbook" racist comments.

Expand for me why you dismiss these issues as myth?

He downplayed the hysterical reaction to COVID and said such an overreaction was unnecessary to the level of the threat....

Think about this. When COVID first became an issue the dems were in the middle of a phony impeachment trial they'd been working on since prior to his presidency.

He began taking steps to mitigate the threat and was called racist, xenophobic etc.

Then suddenly, when the Congressional left finished with their most pressing matter, impeaching Trump with false to no evidence because, globalization, they moved to hysteria hype over COVID... because still, orange man bad...only hysteria will suffice!

What Trump then attempted, was to keep the level of hysteria to a more reasonable (see manageable) level. Why? Because national hysteria really is a deadly thing... more deadly than COVID...

Now that 2020 has come to a close, we can take stock of this last year and see that 2020 had an approximate 300,000 deaths than average.

Of course, some of that is due to outlandish COVID response (extra suicides when people lost their livelihoods, extra domestic violence deaths, etc) irresponsible governance (New York can't blame Trump for dumping their COVID positive cases into nursing homes that had no occurrences of COVID at all, in order to kill off a few elderly and pump up the numbers - go New York leadership!) And of course the summer of left-wing violence, killing cops in the streets etc. Just a big block party of death that was! ( you can chalk that up to being locked up in their houses too long if you like, deprived of church services, work and human contact..)

And of course some people died of COVID... (God rest their souls)

The question has always been, was the reaction to COVID on par with the threat? The reaction that removed peoples constitutional rights, legally deprived them of human contact, forcefully shuttered their businesses, took away their incomes and livelihoods, put our government Trillions in debt etc.

From a public health standpoint - no it wasn't. From Trumps standpoint, we as a nation would have been better off with a far more moderated reaction, than the hysterical one - and I happen to agree. Our great-grandchildren will still be paying for this one.

But hey, orange man bad.. he just didn't do enough to plunge this country into economic destruction so we could be beholden economically to foreign powers... that's real conservatism there..

 

[Redwingfan9]

Before Jerry Falwell, liberal clergy and liberal theologians often criticized evangelicals for not being political. "All they do is preach what they call the gospel. They ignore everything else."

As far the exit polls you cite, Christians are free to vote (or not) as their conscience dictates - and the polls only count those who voted. It's not so much they liked Trump as it is they really, really didn't like Hillary Clinton...

That's the problem. Falwell and the progressive evangelicals of the 70s and 80s made a conscious decision to largely abandon Biblical Christianity in favor of focusing on politics. Personal holiness, study of theology and Biblical worship were pushed aside in favor of obsession over the latest political developments, end times (always hyper focused on world events) and pushing back on abortion and homosexuality. These guys essentially adopted theological liberalism in the church, albeit from a then more conservative political standpoint.

The end result is that believers don't know the first thing about scripture, personal holiness is a concept foreign in most churches and worship has devolved into rock shows and bobo the clown performances. All in the name of standing up for the faith and beating down the heathen swine in the Democratic Party, or something like that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Article: 2020 Faith Vote Reflects 2016 Patterns

I read this article, thought it had some interesting bits, so I thought I'd share. Here's some highlights:

1. "A notable fact in 2016 was that exit polls showed about 80% of white evangelical Christians supported Trump..."
2. "I think the Democrats should stop thinking about white evangelicals entirely," Burge says. "And I think the Republicans should take them for granted. At some point, it's like, what can you do to make them change — on the Democratic side or the Republican side?"
3. When the pro-Biden "Not Our Faith" group was organized, Duford joined it. "My goal," she says, "was more of an encouragement to the droves of people who are leaving the church because of the hypocrisy they've seen."

On point one, later in the article they note the rising number of people leaving the church. I wonder how this issue of politics driving people away from the church is being addressed by churches in general, or if this issue is being addressed at all. If you have a friend who says they've left the church due to hypocrisy in how Christians vote verses what they preach, what do you even say?

On point two, it's sort of concerning that Democrats should feel that Christians are a lost cause, but I find it even more concerning that Republicans can feel that they have the Christian vote regardless of what they do. While this is Burge's opinion, this definitely appears accurate considering how the current administration is being run. Trump appears to be able to get away with a lot, simply because he's the "pro-life" candidate. I also wonder how this issue may be addressed in the church.

On point three, I appreciate the effort to highlight that Christianity isn't necessarily tied to support for Trump, but the fact that the exit polls showed 80% of white Christians did, can one still argue that? Is there a point where a group identity can be hijacked and its original meaning changed by an overwhelming majority with a new direction? If yes... I don't even know how to proceed. If no, how are we to regain credibility to those leaving?

Thanks for reading.

Trump being pro life and Biden being pro choice didn’t give Christians much of an alternative. I’m a Christian Trump supporter who doesn’t trust Trump as far as I could throw him but I could say the exact same about Biden as well. So in my case the choice came down to voting to save innocent lives or voting to advocate killing innocent lives which is no choice at all for a Christian.