The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Status
Not open for further replies.

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't see why the souls John saw in heaven have to be the same as the camp of the saints on earth. He's showing that Christ reigns in heaven just as other scripture teaches (Eph 1:19-23).

In your view the souls John saw are bodily resurrected and then would have immortal bodies. What would be the point of anyone trying to attack people with immortal bodies? That would be ridiculous. Is what what you believe is portrayed in Rev 20:7-9?

Do you believe any of those who are in the camp of the saints are mortals?


As to attacking immortals, it seems to me that this is exactly what satan did when he initially rebelled. Why did he then, since it would be futile to overthrow or destroy someone that is immortal? God is certainly immortal, yet satan rebelled against Him, regardless.

As to the camp of saints having mortals among them, per Premil I would conclude there are no mortals in that camp. Per Amil there would have to be mortals in that camp, obviously. Per Amil there would be no immortals in that camp, obviously. Per Amil neither of those things would be unreasonable, assuming the thousand years precede the 2nd coming. But even so, everyone mentioned in verse 4 are not meaning anyone that would still be physically alive during the events recorded in verses 7-9, per Amil.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As to attacking immortals, it seems to me that this is exactly what satan did when he initially rebelled. Why did he then, since it would be futile to overthrow or destroy someone that is immortal? God is certainly immortal, yet satan rebelled against Him, regardless.
He rebelled against Him, sure, but he didn't try to destroy Him or anything. He knows that can't happen.

As to the camp of saints having mortals among them, per Premil I would conclude there are no mortals in that camp.
It makes no sense to think that a bunch of mortal unbelievers would try to attack immortal believers. None whatsoever.

Per Amil there would have to be mortals in that camp, obviously. Per Amil there would be no immortals in that camp, obviously.
Yes, because it makes no sense that immortals would be attacked by mortals.

Per Amil neither of those things would be unreasonable, assuming the thousand years precede the 2nd coming. But even so, everyone mentioned in verse 4 are not meaning anyone that would still be physically alive during the events recorded in verses 7-9, per Amil.
Yes. I don't see that as being a problem at all. I see it as not making any sense at all for you to think that mortals will think that they can kill immortals.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,560
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,691.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly a reference to the day of judgment which is for individuals. The concept of a day of judgment for nations is not taught anywhere in scripture.

The day of judgment is clearly for individuals, not nations:
The gathering of the nations, or people groups, is shown in Revelation 16:12-14 and in Joel 3:2 & Joel 3:11-12 They will all be killed, Joel 3:13-17 and Revelation 14:18-20

The Judgment of every individual will happen after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see it as not making any sense at all for you to think that mortals will think that they can kill immortals.

This ignores the 'D' word, deception. Anyone being deceived is natuarally not going to be using good judgment at the time.

What I have to wonder though, which tends to favor Amil until you really think about it, is that Premil has the beast and FP already in the LOF when satan is loosed after the thousand years, so who is it that satan works through in order to deceive the nations, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? satan is only one being, so how is it that he is able to deceive a number that large?

Which then gets me to thinking about when satan initially rebelled himself, that he apparently managed all by himself to get billions of angels to join him in his rebellion. He didn't need to work through anyone, such as a beast or FP, in order to have billions of angels join him in his rebellion.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So, the beast isn't a figurative term? And can a figurative dragon be bound with a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit or prison?

Do you somehow not know that the term "thousand" is used figuratively several times in scripture?

Here are some examples:

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Psalm 91:5-7 A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

Deuteronomy 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?

Joshua 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

Isaiah 30:17, One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

Psalm 84:9-10 Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Psalm 50:10-11 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 "one man among a thousand have I found."

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.

Job 9:2-3 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Isaiah 60:21-22 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

Amos 5:1-4 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.
Worshipped the beast and his image??

No this is already an established point.

None of those other verses, by your own claim, have any context whatsoever of a future millennium.

Why would I go out of context to just mock God? The claim is God would never be literal once, if God's Word could be proven figurative every other time. What about all the verses where 1000 is not figurative?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
This has been one of my points as well. Amil makes no sense out of verse 4 in relation to verses 7-9. Per Amil the ones in verse 4 would be in heaven at the time, yet no one in verses 7-9 are surrounding the camp of saints in heaven, they are surrounding the camp of saints on earth, obviously. If those martyred saints in verse 4 play no part in verses 7-9, why even mention them at all?
Not only that. All humanity just died. These resurrected are the only humans on earth. They cannot take any other humans, by their own claims, and populate the earth without these resurrected humans. They all just died in the battle of Armageddon. They have to prove that Satan was not at the battle of Armageddon, or that Armageddon was not even on earth. Christ does come to earth at Armageddon, and does not leave. They have to prove Christ left, as well.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Please tell me when the last trumpet sounded or will sound. Because that is when Paul said we (the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are still alive at the time) will be changed and have immortal bodies.
Date setting?

We will be changed and glorified in Paradise during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. It will be sooner rather than later. Or after, since most claim the 7th Trumpet is not even sounding at the battle of Armageddon.

Where is any Trumpet sounding at the battle of Armageddon, if you claim your literal Second Coming is in Revelation 16:15?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I don't see why the souls John saw in heaven have to be the same as the camp of the saints on earth. He's showing that Christ reigns in heaven just as other scripture teaches (Eph 1:19-23).

In your view the souls John saw are bodily resurrected and then would have immortal bodies. What would be the point of anyone trying to attack people with immortal bodies? That would be ridiculous. Is what what you believe is portrayed in Rev 20:7-9?

Do you believe any of those who are in the camp of the saints are mortals?

Why does intent have to drive facts? We are not even told why they try to surround the camp of saints, except Satan talked to them. They themselves are consumed by fire from heaven (God). Even those in this huge army had incorruptible bodies. That did not stop God.

Why would God be talking about heaven, if He wanted this event to be on earth, where Satan is loosed to? You have yet to explain an army so huge it is unlike any other army ever. Is there such an army today? Are you stretching this 1000 years out another 1000 years, your self? That makes no sense. "There is no future 1000 years, but it may take another 1000 years, to prove pre-mill wrong"?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Why can't it all happen quickly? I believe this whole scene you're referencing is portrayed in Relation 20:9-15. How long after the fire comes down on those attacking the camp of the saints do you believe the judgment described following that occurs? Do you have trouble understanding how the judgment can take place right after what is described in Revelation 20:9?

Because Revelation 20:9 is not the battle of Armageddon. What makes you think it is? You have not even shown Revelation 20:9 is on earth or heaven. Where do these saints come from?

At Armageddon Satan, the beast, and the FP are in or near Jerusalem and gather at Megiddo. Christ comes with sword. Revelation 20:9 Christ and the saints are in Jerusalem and Satan brings an army from across the whole earth. Even figuratively fire from heaven is not a sword. The central location is even opposite of who is where. How is a position change symbolic of anything?

If you disagree John has been talking about Jerusalem as a central city throughout Revelation, then you pick a city, or call it a camp, if one is so adamant it cannot be Jerusalem because of figurative or literal understanding.

His binding is not the same event as him being cast into the lake of fire, so your question makes no sense. Do you not differentiate between him being bound and being cast into the lake of fire?

Yes, there is a 1000 year period, between the two events. He is not bound in the Lake of Fire.
It depends on whether or not it's meant to be read that way. Clearly, not all scripture is written in a literal, straightforward manner, right? You admitted yourself that I interpret 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 literally while you do not. We all interpret some scripture literally and some figuratively.

No, I don't. If a passage, such as 1 Cor 15:50-54, is meant to be read in a literal, straightforward manner then that's what I do.

I interpret 1 Corinthians 15 as a literal ongoing event, that the living cannot precede. Paul never wrote it to include a 1900 year period. There was never a sense of waiting "until the very end".

23 But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming;
24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power.

The OT and Messiah was the firstfruits. Those who belong to the Messiah at His coming (the living church). Then The culmination, this third group that you all deny can even exist. This culmination is the millennium kingdom, and John says it is a 1000 year period. Then the authority is handed back to God. Paul does show expediency, literally no time at all. Not even a 1990 year church event. Why would Paul mention a 1,000 year event afterwards? He says 3 gatherings.

Interpretation involves determining whether any given text is meant to be understood literally or figuratively. So, all scripture has to be interpreted in that sense. You act as if you interpret all scripture literally as if it's all plain text. But, you know very well that it's not. So, what in the world is your point here?

You're hard to follow sometimes because of your private interpretations. You say things that I've never seen anyone say before.
So then one should never take a literal meaning and spiritualize it? How is Paul being figurative with two different types of resurrection?

Paul is describing both a physical and spiritual resurrection. Why not acknowledge both types, then figure out the when?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
He rebelled against Him, sure, but he didn't try to destroy Him or anything. He knows that can't happen.
He convinced a third of the angels to rebel. Satan overthinks too much. He offered God (as Jesus) the kingdoms. Did Satan not even know about the Atonement and gathering a church out of these kingdoms? He did not think enough. Then Satan offered the church these kingdoms. The church conceded. Yes, they gave up control by taking over physical control. Satan did not give them away for free.

Why would Satan not offer humans a chance to overcome their own kind? Satan is not in it, just to destroy God. Satan knows he can destroy God's creation. Besides, it is insane for any created being to think they are God, or can replace God.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He convinced a third of the angels to rebel. Satan overthinks too much. He offered God (as Jesus) the kingdoms. Did Satan not even know about the Atonement and gathering a church out of these kingdoms? He did not think enough. Then Satan offered the church these kingdoms. The church conceded. Yes, they gave up control by taking over physical control. Satan did not give them away for free.

Why would Satan not offer humans a chance to overcome their own kind? Satan is not in it, just to destroy God. Satan knows he can destroy God's creation. Besides, it is insane for any created being to think they are God, or can replace God.


BTW, where is it in Scriptures that ppl are even coming up with the 1/3 of angels theory? Where does it ever tell us anything like that?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
BTW, where is it in Scriptures that ppl are even coming up with the 1/3 of angels theory? Where does it ever tell us anything like that?
Revelation 13:3-4

3 Another sign was seen in heaven there was a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven royal crowns.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of heaven and threw them down to the earth.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 13:3-4

3 Another sign was seen in heaven there was a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven royal crowns.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of heaven and threw them down to the earth.


None of that is involving anything that happened in or before the beginning of time. As to verse 4, when do you take that to be meaning? Before the war in heaven? Or after the war in heaven?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because Revelation 20:9 is not the battle of Armageddon. What makes you think it is? You have not even shown Revelation 20:9 is on earth or heaven. Where do these saints come from?
It's on earth and I've always said that. The camp of the saints represents the church and the rest are unbelievers who oppose the church. I believe the fire that comes down to destroy all those unbelievers is the same fire Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 3.

At Armageddon Satan, the beast, and the FP are in or near Jerusalem and gather at Megiddo. Christ comes with sword.
So, you believe Jesus will have a literal double-edged sword coming out of His mouth when He returns?

Revelation 20:9 Christ and the saints are in Jerusalem and Satan brings an army from across the whole earth. Even figuratively fire from heaven is not a sword. The central location is even opposite of who is where. How is a position change symbolic of anything?
How can people numbering "as the sand of the sea" all literally surround Jerusalem? Have you never thought about that before? I believe it's clearly figurative language to described Satan uniting unbelievers throughout the world to oppose Christians and wanting to destroy the church.

If you disagree John has been talking about Jerusalem as a central city throughout Revelation, then you pick a city, or call it a camp, if one is so adamant it cannot be Jerusalem because of figurative or literal understanding.
Explain to me how a number of people "as the sand of the sea" could come together from the entire world to surround Jerusalem? Imagine the logistics of that. It would be impossible. You never recognize figurative language.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Worshipped the beast and his image??

No this is already an established point.

None of those other verses, by your own claim, have any context whatsoever of a future millennium.

Why would I go out of context to just mock God? The claim is God would never be literal once, if God's Word could be proven figurative every other time. What about all the verses where 1000 is not figurative?
I was simply pointing out that the word "thousand" can be used figuratively in scripture because it is many times, but not that it has to be figurative every time. I think everyone else but you would know that is what I was saying.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The gathering of the nations, or people groups, is shown in Revelation 16:12-14 and in Joel 3:2 & Joel 3:11-12 They will all be killed, Joel 3:13-17 and Revelation 14:18-20
That's not what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Did you forget about the sheep who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's not what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Did you forget about the sheep who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world?

Ezekiel 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Why can't it be about what something like this was about?

I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn----And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left(Matthew 25:32-33).

And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me---For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not(Matthew 25:42)---Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me(Matthew 25:45)


and they shall not enter into the land of Israel---And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:


Why would this not be the same concept? Why would the rebels per Ezekiel 20:38 not be representing all of the wicked since the beginning of time, but in Matthew 25 the goats would be? Since you agree with NOSAS, why can't the goats in this context be referring to the ones in the body of Christ that lose their salvation in the end? How can anyone, if paying attention to the texts, miss the fact, that from at least Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25:30, there have been two types of servants in view, profitable servants, and unprofitable servants? When Christ returns where is it that both types of servants will be found? Is it not throughout all the nations in the earth? They are all not going to be found in just one location, right? There will be some in this nation, some in that nation, so on and so on, maybe the reason that before him shall be gathered all nations.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,560
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,691.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
That's not what Matthew 25:31-46 is about. Did you forget about the sheep who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world?
Of course, the 'sheep' peoples are not killed. They will go into the Millennium.
Revelation 12:6 says who they are.
I believe the fire that comes down to destroy all those unbelievers is the same fire Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 3.
Fire is not used to kill anyone by Jesus at His Return.
2 Peter 3:7 refers to the Sixth Seal Day of the Lords wrath.
Explain to me how a number of people "as the sand of the sea" could come together from the entire world to surround Jerusalem? Imagine the logistics of that. It would be impossible. You never recognize figurative language.
Be good for you to recognize scriptural language.
Revelation 16:12-14 & 16, says there will be peoples from all the world at Armageddon.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This ignores the 'D' word, deception. Anyone being deceived is natuarally not going to be using good judgment at the time.
So, they will be so dumb that they somehow won't even know that those people have immortal bodies after being with them for 1000 years?

What I have to wonder though, which tends to favor Amil until you really think about it, is that Premil has the beast and FP already in the LOF when satan is loosed after the thousand years, so who is it that satan works through in order to deceive the nations, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? satan is only one being, so how is it that he is able to deceive a number that large?
Very good question. I think this reveals a weakness in the Premil view because Satan always works hand in hand with the beast and false prophet when deceiving people.

Which then gets me to thinking about when satan initially rebelled himself, that he apparently managed all by himself to get billions of angels to join him in his rebellion. He didn't need to work through anyone, such as a beast or FP, in order to have billions of angels join him in his rebellion.
We shouldn't pretend to know what that was like or how that happened exactly since scripture doesn't tell us. But, when it comes to deceiving people, Satan uses the beast and false prophet to do so and I believe that has always been the case rather than only being the case for a short time in the future.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.