Are there sincere seekers in hell?

[Clizby WampusCat]

Well, I'm a Doctor.
Well, actually I just play one on TV.
Well, actually I just watch one on TV.

View attachment 290660

Also, there's a little bit of scriptural reasoning behind the first part of the suggestion; it is taken from this:

Matthew 6:5-6

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And also this Matthew 6:2-4

2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, so that they will be praised by people. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your charitable giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

And also this, Luke 11

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

The Lord's Prayer follows, but also some other interesting things:

5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.

This is followed by:

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Which is interesting to me and kind of core to your OP and question.

So - what do you see in verses 5-8?

Here's what I see.
Is the man seeking something for himself?
No. Someone else has come to visit him. And he has 'nothing to offer'. He seeks on behalf of another. I believe, that this is the persistent seeking that will be rewarded. If your persistent seeking is always of and for yourself... I'm not sure how well that will go. I would expect to be pounding a lot of sand, which is what it sounds like you have been doing. Being a God-Seeker and a Self-Seeker are two entirely different things, though at first it's almost impossible to see the difference. In between there though, is a For-Others-Seeker. Sometimes that is easier to get to. Oddly enough, that is the start of Love. And stranger still, the start of Love, is the start of God.

1 John 4:7-21

As for the second part, Luke 8

17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known and brought to light.

Ok, I agree this is your interpretation.

I've been on the wrong side of that particular piece of truth before; the second part of my suggestion would put you on the wrong side of it, and I think the heart of you knows it. If you are thinking there isn't a right/wrong side or that isn't truth, I'm expecting it may clear you of that notion.

My heart does not know anything. I believed many wrong things for many years because I listened to my heart. Convince my intellect and I will have no choice but to believe.

I'm not sure you'll say "thank you" though. Hopefully you will stop at the first suggestion. But the two suggestions together, ought to give you a really clear contrast if you need one. And I think that in that contrast you'll find God, undeniably.

Ok. I have been told this before by different Christians with different methods.

 

[Petros2015]

The fact that I am not convinced indicates he does not exist or does not want me to know he exists.

Hmm, what would it take?
What if an invisible hand wrote the words

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN

on your computer screen?
Would that do it?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Hmm, what would it take?
What if an invisible hand wrote the words

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN

on your computer screen?
Would that do it?

Again, your god should know.

Is your god omniscient? Yes? Then he knows what it would take whether I do or not.
Is your god omnipotent? Yes? Then he can make it happen. And, he can do so without violating free-will.
Is your god willing that any should perish? No? Then, whence this state of affairs.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Hmm, what would it take?
What if an invisible hand wrote the words

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN

on your computer screen?
Would that do it?

No, How would I know it was from a God and not a computer virus which would be the more logical assumption. The actual answer would be I don't know until there is good evidence for the actual reason.

I don't know what would convince me. If God exists and wants me to know he exists He would know and I would be convinced.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, Hebrews 9:27 it is given for men to die once, after this comes judgement.

Alll Jesus's parables about judgement make it clear that one is judged on what one decided about Jesus in this life.

That is a barbaric. It's hard to see how that would make such a judgement righteous.

The masses of humanity have never heard of Jesus or cannot appreciate Christian doctrines, not having grown up in a culture that accepts its myths as the default truth.

 

[Tolworth John]

That is a barbaric. It's hard to see how that would make such a judgement righteous.

The masses of humanity have never heard of Jesus or cannot appreciate Christian doctrines, not having grown up in a culture that accepts its myths as the default truth.

Years ago when the ' troubles' where at there height some it's terrorist where brought before a court.
When ask ' How do you lead, guilt or not guilty? '
They turned there backs on the court shouting ' we do not recognise the authority of this court!'

Strangely this did not stop there trial, not guilty pleas where enters for them and it proceeds.
Sorry I can't remember, if I ever knew, what the verdict was.

The point is whether you think it barbaric or not is irrelevant.
Ignorance is never an excuse, talk to a traffic cop about not knowing the speed limit and see what he says.

The Bible says in several places that the sky proclaims the glory of God etc etc

There are no atheist tribes or people groups they know about God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Years ago when the ' troubles' where at there height some it's terrorist where brought before a court.
When ask ' How do you lead, guilt or not guilty? '
They turned there backs on the court shouting ' we do not recognise the authority of this court!'

Strangely this did not stop there trial, not guilty pleas where enters for them and it proceeds.
Sorry I can't remember, if I ever knew, what the verdict was.

The point is whether you think it barbaric or not is irrelevant.
Ignorance is never an excuse, talk to a traffic cop about not knowing the speed limit and see what he says.

The Bible says in several places that the sky proclaims the glory of God etc etc

There are no atheist tribes or people groups they know about God.

Ridiculous and sophomoric.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Are there sincere seekers that would believe if they had convincing evidence for the Christian god? My thought is that God says:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Tim 2:1-7 ESV.

and:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Mat 7:7-12 NIV

If these are true, why would God allow a person to not believe if they would believe if they just had convincing evidence and are asking for that evidence? I was one of those people when I was questioning my faith. Why did God not give me or many others the evidence they required to believe. All I was looking for was that evidence and I would have stayed a Christian. Why did God not provide it if the above verses are true?

I am in the habit of praying to God about people who have died because God's Nature allows him to respond when they were still alive.
Thus, God can reach out to them when they were still alive.
If they are seeking God after death and pray. God can reach out to them when they were still alive. It is not praying to humans.

Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. -2 Maccabees 12:45b

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Did Paul Pray for the Dead?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

There are no atheist tribes or people groups they know about God

You don’t know what other people think or don’t think. Yes, there are people like me that do not believe god exists. Calling them liars is not treating them with respect.

 

[Tolworth John]

You don’t know what other people think or don’t think. Yes, there are people like me that do not believe god exists. Calling them liars is not treating them with respect.

Please read again what I wrote.
Do you know what a tribe is, or a people group?

They are not people in the west or in other parts of the world who identify as atheist.

Of course if you can demonstrate how you do belong to a tribal group that is atheistic or to an atheistic people group I am perfect willing to apologise.

Otherwise please read what people post?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Please read again what I wrote.
Do you know what a tribe is, or a people group?

They are not people in the west or in other parts of the world who identify as atheist.

Of course if you can demonstrate how you do belong to a tribal group that is atheistic or to an atheistic people group I am perfect willing to apologise.

Otherwise please read what people post?

Define people group please.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I am in the habit of praying to God about people who have died because God's Nature allows him to respond when they were still alive.
Thus, God can reach out to them when they were still alive.
If they are seeking God after death and pray. God can reach out to them when they were still alive. It is not praying to humans.

Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. -2 Maccabees 12:45b

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. How do I know your interpretation is correct?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

The problem with your question is no matter what evidence I present you, you will find fault in it. You have chosen to quench the Holy Spirit. I believe you would be better served finding evidence that He does not exist.
Approach the problem from a different angle.

I’m just asking a question because you seem to be genuinely willing to help others who may have certain struggles. I’m curious do you think there is evidence for the op that they couldn’t find a problem with? Maybe that’s what the op is looking for. Something that is 100% certain in which they don’t need to take someone else word for it. Do you think this could be available to the op? Like say it was available to Thomas? Others believed but Thomas said he would not unless he seen with his own eyes and and touched his hands where the holes are. If there are people who think like Thomas out there in this world why are they treated so badly? Even if they refuse to believe the evidence others give, isn’t that exactly what Thomas refused? I don’t recall for sure but if my memory is correct he was not treated unkindly for this. You seen to be kind abs willing to help where you can so I thought I could ask you. Hopefully you don’t mind. I’m not trying to argue or say your wrong.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

I understood your point completely.



No need to apologise.

Evidently there are those who may be unconvincable.



Because one, there is only one God, and to me it makes perfect sense that almighty God who did all the creating would leave his people with a word about who he is, who we are, and what the plan is. Actually, a lot of this is about what makes the most sense.



The big bang pretty much states just that.



Or why bother with a different reason if we are thoroughly convinced already.

So it’s fair to say that the reason you believe what you believe is because to you it makes most sense out of the options your given?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

You know, I won't have any trouble answering all those questions, but seems to me you are one of a common type people who will throw an argument up for anything and everything so what would be the point?

At this point, and with the same evidence the rest of us have, you choose not to believe...not uncommon, and nothing anyone but yourself can fix.

Is it possible the op may be sincere and your words could help them if you do answer? I would think the possibility of one person coming would be worth it, no? And even if it doesn’t help the op maybe it helps a fellow believer or another person who is interested. I personally would be really interested to hear the answers to the op’s questions if you wouldn’t mind? Thanks

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Ok, thanks for the discussion.

This is a common tactic by theists to avoid answering the divine hiddenness problem. Just say non believers choose not to believe and that the evidence is sufficient without actually discussing the topic in more depth as to why that is a wrong answer.

I really am hoping they answer. Don’t give up I believe they would love to help you out and if not you, I’m interested to hear also so maybe they will take the opportunity to be a light. I realize it can frustrating to have to repeat but the result of helping you see what the truth is if it helps would be worth it I would hope.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

How could you understand it ? I am in the same position you are in. You seek to find the evidence He exists and I seek to find the evidence that He does not exist. You do not understand my position and I do not understand your position. It is a mystery. We will leave it at that.

I really wish it didn’t always stop here. There has to be a better way of helping each other. I hope at least

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Because you will not believe me. You have spent years seeking, searching, questioning and it has gotten you no where. What I have to say will not make a bit of difference. You have quenched the work of the Holy Spirit so no amount of truth will pernitrate your condition. Doubt.

The op is saying it will if it’s convincing. Isn’t it worth it if it helps them?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I really am hoping they answer. Don’t give up I believe they would love to help you out and if not you, I’m interested to hear also so maybe they will take the opportunity to be a light. I realize it can frustrating to have to repeat but the result of helping you see what the truth is if it helps would be worth it I would hope.

I do not need help. I need good evidence to believe. That is all I am asking for.