Do Whatever They Tell You...

[concretecamper]

When this verse was written; there was no Brit Chadashah. The scripture that is being referenced is the TaNaK.

thank you for repeating what I said.

 

[mmksparbud]

But he didn't tell his disciples to carry on keeping them, nor did he teach gentiles to start.

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Strong in Him]

I just posted a few Scriptures of the Word's of the Lord's Christ Himself which completely contradicts your statement. I didn't even include the volumes of Scriptures from the Law and Prophets in which the Spirit of this same Christ prophesied, Not that they would teach God's Law, but that they wouldn't, just as Jesus declared "EVERY TIME" HE spoke of them.

I have said before, though possibly not in this thread, that people need to define/explain what they mean by "the law."

As a mere Gentile, when I hear people say "the law", I take it to mean everything written in the books of the law; the first 5 books of the Bible.
Now if I look in those books, I see laws on circumcision, offering animal sacrifices, laws pertaining to hygiene, skin conditions, discharges, keeping the Sabbath and clean and unclean foods - as well as other laws like rising in the presence of "the aged", not trimming your beard, not planting more than one type of seed in your fields and not wearing clothes made from more than one fibre.
Is this what people mean by the law?

It has been said that we have to keep EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God. Yet when I've listed these laws, found in Leviticus, and pointed out that no one offers animal sacrifices today, the answer has been something along the lines of "keep God's pure Torah, not oral tradition".

Also, when I talk about Jesus not teaching the law, I mean that he did not teach obedience to, or salvation through, these laws. Jesus did not say "come to me, see how to keep the law perfectly and then do it." He said "come to me and receive eternal life."

But you preach they DID Teach God's Law.

I wasn't preaching anything.
I said that the Pharisees taught the law; that was their job. Jews were brought up to learn and obey the law; boys learnt it for their bar Mitzvah's.

I later qualified that and said that maybe they taught oral tradition too.
So maybe they did, and maybe Jesus was saying that they were imposing their own, man made and oral, traditions onto people instead of the law that God gave.

That does not alter the fact that all the laws that I have referred to are in Leviticus, and, as I read it, are all part of the law that God gave to Moses.
Jesus did not teach this, nor command Gentiles to be taught it and to obey it. Full stop.

I do not include the 10 commandments here; Jesus said that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbour as ourselves. This sums up the 10 commandments. We cannot say that we love God if we are making other gods or idols of those gods, or misusing God's name; we cannot say that we love our neighbour if we are stealing from them, committing adultery, covering their possessions/wife etc.
So if Christians are obeying Christ's words to love God and their neighbour, they are keeping the 10 commandments.
But as Jesus did not say that Gentiles had to keep the food, hygiene and sacrificial laws, we don't.

 

[AbbaLove]

The Seat of Moses

​

"There are two leading theories on this, which I will give before giving my own. The first, and more prominent theory, is that the seat of Moses was a place within the Synagogue. ​

Proponents of the first theory state that in Moses' seat, the Pharisees could only read the Written Torah, and were not allowed to give an interpretation of it until they stood up from Moses' seat. Therefore, Yeshua was telling Believers to listen and obey them as long as they read from the Written Torah, but NOT to obey them in their own interpretations of that.

The second theory is actually a textual one. It is based on the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew. If you're unfamiliar, the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew is a Medieval-time translation of the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. Those that support this version's authenticity claim it is a copy of a Hebrew original Matthew. This is not the article that seeks to debate this, but to put it simply, the Shem Tov Matthew is merely a copy from Latin and Greek sources, into the Hebrew language. In fact, it was not even found as a singular manuscript, but was in a collection called "The Touchstone." This collection was filled with anti-Catholic material, and was used by Shem Tov ben Isaac ben Shaprut (after whom the manuscript was named) to debate Catholic priests and monks in the 1300s, with the purpose of disproving Christianity."​

Much more on this at ... www.torahapologetics.com/history--culture/the-seat-of-moses

Reading the book of Hebrews makes it clear that the Seat of Moses is inferior to the seat of the Son of YHVH and His shed blood is eternal; whereas the shed blood of animals is temporary and doesn't take away sin.​

 

[Gary K]

How do you get the idea that we can believe in Jesus, confess him as Saviour and Lord, be born again and become children of God - and then have to go back to the OT to re read laws that were given to the Hebrews at Sinai?
Jesus did not say "if you love me, keep all these laws". He did not say that these laws save, nor that they give life.

So, you just won't answer my questions.

 

[Strong in Him]

So, you just won't answer my questions.

If you tell me what you mean by "the law", then I will, yes.

 

[Gary K]

If you tell me what you mean by "the law", then I will, yes.

Oh, I see. You set conditions on you answering questions. Why?

 

[Gary K]

If you tell me what you mean by "the law", then I will, yes.

You brought up the new covenant so I asked you what it was, and then you start setting conditions on answering my question as to what you see as the new covenant.

 

[Studyman]

I have said before, though possibly not in this thread, that people need to define/explain what they mean by "the law."

As a mere Gentile, when I hear people say "the law", I take it to mean everything written in the books of the law; the first 5 books of the Bible.
Now if I look in those books, I see laws on circumcision, offering animal sacrifices, laws pertaining to hygiene, skin conditions, discharges, keeping the Sabbath and clean and unclean foods - as well as other laws like rising in the presence of "the aged", not trimming your beard, not planting more than one type of seed in your fields and not wearing clothes made from more than one fibre.
Is this what people mean by the law?

Well it is no surprise you believe this given the doctrines and traditions of the religions of the land you and I were born into. But if you can just close your ears to all the "other voices" and just focus on scriptures, you will find that God had His Laws, and the Law and Prophets written Specifically for you and I, New Covenant believers.

First there is the Promise of the New Covenant from the Christ of the Bible.

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This is a most amazing promise. At the time the only way to even hear God's Law, was to find a Levite Priest to read from the Book only they has access to.

But now, we have all been delivered the Oracles of God, so we can hear His Word for ourselves and not through the filter of some preacher who has refused to teach what God Said to teach.

I would point you to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 9.

1 Cor. 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

You see, even this seemingly irrelevant instruction was written for you and I, for our sake's, no doubt.

There are several other places where Paul confirms this Biblical Truth. Of course, if you have been convinced that this is not true, that God's Word was not written for our sake's, or just written for men of a certain DNA, then you can not benefit from the instruction, you won't "seek" God's Righteousness through them. And you will join the masses of religious folks who reject God's instruction over the doctrines and traditions of the religions of the land you were born into.

Does God care about oxen, facial hair, loose skin on the penis, etc. or are His Laws written for our sake's. For our sake's no doubt they are written. as Paul, the teacher of the Gentiles is telling you. "Many" folks, who come in Christ's Name, don't believe this. They believe that God is a respecter of persons, that God saved Israel from slavery in Egypt, only to place on their necks grievous, unjust, unfair Laws impossible to follow, then lied to them by telling them they could follow them, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't follow them. This is the implication of the preaching of "many" who come in Christ's Name. This characterization of God and His Laws is untrue, yet it is the predominate doctrine taught in most religions.

Paul did not promote this popular belief.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The way I see it, we all have the same choice presented to us as God presented to Eve. We have God's Word, and we have the "other voice". Who we listen to determines who are Faith is in.

It has been said that we have to keep EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God. Yet when I've listed these laws, found in Leviticus, and pointed out that no one offers animal sacrifices today, the answer has been something along the lines of "keep God's pure Torah, not oral tradition".

It is obvious that you have not really studied this part of God's Word. Although it is in front of you. If you had, you would find that there are two Laws given on Sinai. One that defines sin. And a Temporary Law "ADDED because of Transgressions" which provides for the Atonement of Sin, "till the Lamb of God should come".

The Added Law is called the "Levitical Priesthood" in Hebrews 7-10. This Covenant God made with Levi was to be in force and effect until "After those days", when the Christ Himself would take over these Priesthood Duties. (Jer. 31:33,34)

So the Law and Prophets themselves teach the end of this Priesthood and the "sacrificial "works of the Law" of Atonement associated with it. You might notice that the Righteous Levite John the Baptist, handed this Levitical Priesthood over the Jesus just as the Law provided. And you may also note that Jesus forgave sins without having sprinkled on drop of Blood, or performed one "Deed of the Law" of Atonement given specifically to Levi.

So for a man to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sins, after the Prophesied Lamb of God shed His Blood, that would go against the Law of God. The Jews were still requiring these "works of the Law" for justification of sins, as they didn't believe Jesus was the ONE. They were bewitching new converts with this requirement throughout Paul's life.

So the truth is, the pure Torah, as some call it, prophesied of the end of the Levitical Priesthood and the "works of the Law" for atonement contained therein. It's just that the Scribes and Pharisees were not teaching God's Laws, they were furthering their own as Jesus and His Prophets tell us over and over..

Also, when I talk about Jesus not teaching the law, I mean that he did not teach obedience to, or salvation through, these laws. Jesus did not say "come to me, see how to keep the law perfectly and then do it." He said "come to me and receive eternal life."

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews". So what advantage did the Jews have?

Rom. 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid! That means no. So just because the Jews didn't believe the Oracles of God, doesn't make the Oracles of God void.

"He said "come to me and receive eternal life"

He also said.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Shall we pick and choose which of HIS Word's we will believe, and which we will not?

I wasn't preaching anything.
I said that the Pharisees taught the law; that was their job. Jews were brought up to learn and obey the law; boys learnt it for their bar Mitzvah's.

I later qualified that and said that maybe they taught oral tradition too.
So maybe they did, and maybe Jesus was saying that they were imposing their own, man made and oral, traditions onto people instead of the law that God gave.

I think there is Biblical Truth. To say the Pharisees taught God's Law is False. To say the Pharisees taught for doctrines the Commandments of men is truth. If i understand the truth in this matter, I will be able to understand the truth in other matters. If I am convinced of a lie, this also will permeate by whole mind and corrupt other things I read.

This is why Jesus said to beware the Leaven of the Pharisees. A little bit of untruth spreads throughout the whole mind. This matter is easy to discern, all we need to do is believe Jesus and HIS definition of the mainstream preachers of His time.

That does not alter the fact that all the laws that I have referred to are in Leviticus, and, as I read it, are all part of the law that God gave to Moses.
Jesus did not teach this, nor command Gentiles to be taught it and to obey it. Full stop.

That is your religious philosophy, but that is not what the Scriptures say. God is no respecter of persons, and there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. One Law for the Stranger and the Home born. Again, we both have to decide who we are going to place our faith in. The God of the Bible, or the "other voice" in the garden who quotes some of God's Word. My hope is that you choose the God of the Bible.

I do not include the 10 commandments here; Jesus said that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbour as ourselves. This sums up the 10 commandments. We cannot say that we love God if we are making other gods or idols of those gods, or misusing God's name; we cannot say that we love our neighbour if we are stealing from them, committing adultery, covering their possessions/wife etc.
So if Christians are obeying Christ's words to love God and their neighbour, they are keeping the 10 commandments.
But as Jesus did not say that Gentiles had to keep the food, hygiene and sacrificial laws, we don't.

The Salvation of God is HIS Salvation. This is His Program. He sets the standard, He makes the rules. He created us with the free will to choose.

You would most certainly follow the rules of your mother if you were in her house. it wouldn't matter what they were. If they regarded shoes, hat, food, company, curfew, bedtime, dinnertime, etc.

Why would the God of the Bible be treated any less, especially since HE gave His only Son to pay for your rebellion and indifference to His instruction in the first place?

You are furthering a lot of modern religious tradition here which have little or no support from Scriptures. I'm of a mind that the Scriptures count and that HIS People should trust them for guidance. My hope is that you might reconsider some of the things you have been convinced of, and trust the Scriptures to lead you as they were written specifically for our Admonition, for our sake's no doubt.

 

[Strong in Him]

Oh, I see. You set conditions on you answering questions. Why?

I wrote a post asking what people mean when they talk about "the law", so that we know if we are all talking about the same thing.
Some people have said that we are to believe every word that comes from the mouth of God. According to my Bible, God commanded the Hebrews to keep food and hygiene laws and offer animal sacrifices. Is this part of the law that we are supposed to keep?

 

[Strong in Him]

Well it is no surprise you believe this given the doctrines and traditions of the religions of the land you and I were born into. But if you can just close your ears to all the "other voices" and just focus on scriptures, you will find that God had His Laws, and the Law and Prophets written Specifically for you and I, New Covenant believers.

I've been asking a question about the Scriptures.
My Bible contains the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. God's laws, given to Moses at Sinai, are recorded in those books. These include food and hygiene laws, also laws about animal sacrifices.

A number of threads on these forums, over the years, have been about eating/not eating pork and keeping the Sabbath. These threads have insisted that we still need to keep God's law - it's written in Scripture so we, as Christians, have to obey Scripture. My point has always been that if you say you should keep God's law, then you need to keep ALL of it. That includes laws on not trimming beards, not wearing clothing of more than one fibre and so on. All these laws are written in Leviticus; if people only keep some of them, then they are being selective about God's laws. They are saying that they will only keep those that are easy/convenient for them.
Either we say that those laws were given to that group of people at that time, in that place, we can learn from them, but we do not need to apply them to our lives today, hundreds of centuries later; or we say "no, they are in Scripture, we have to keep, and apply, ALL of Scripture to our lives today."

As with so many things, this is a question about interpreting Scripture.
Does every word in it apply to us, even though it wasn't written to us, or is it, in fact, true to say that the Bible must be read and understood in context and we discern which bits are for us and we need to apply to our lives?

The OT was not written for New Covenant believers.
The Bible is the revelation of God and his relationship with his people. It is the story of God's people. Adam and Eve created, disobeyed God, sin came into the world. God, in his mercy, gave people a way to make atonement for their sins so that they could be in his presence and come to know him - even in Cain and Abel's day, they were offering sacrifices. Some people think the book of Job is dated around the time of Genesis, and in that book, Job offered sacrifices on behalf of his children in case they had sinned.
After rescuing Joseph's descendants from Egypt, God gave written laws for them to follow and a covenant. The rest of the OT tells the story of how God's people sinned, broke the covenant, were punished, cried out to God in their punishment, were restored and sinned again. God later said, through Jeremiah, that he would make a New Covenant, and this happened when his Son Jesus, the perfect Lamb, was sacrificed for us. Jesus' coming, birth, ministry, death and resurrection were foretold in the OT - the first prophecy being in the Garden of Eden, Genesis 3:15.

First there is the Promise of the New Covenant from the Christ of the Bible.

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That was prophesied through Jeremiah.

This is a most amazing promise. At the time the only way to even hear God's Law, was to find a Levite Priest to read from the Book only they has access to.

But now, we have all been delivered the Oracles of God, so we can hear His Word for ourselves and not through the filter of some preacher who has refused to teach what God Said to teach.

Not only that, we know his Son who is THE Word of God, and who, by his Spirit, can live in us.

I would point you to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 9.

1 Cor. 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

He created them, and he cares even for sparrows, so I don't see why not.

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

You see, even this seemingly irrelevant instruction was written for you and I, for our sake's, no doubt.

??
You have taken that Scripture out of context. Paul is talking about the rights of an Apostle. He says that he and Barnabas, and other Apostles, have a right to hospitality and to be provided for in their work - just as someone who works to plant a vineyard does so because he wants to enjoy the grapes, or someone who tends a flock shares in the milk. A soldier does not serve at his own expense, and people who plough fields and thresh the corn are allowed to share in the harvest.
In the same way, says Paul, they have sown a spiritual seed among the Corinthians; they have the right to enjoy a spiritual harvest 1 Corinthians 9:11, and to ask for support from them.
But Paul goes on to say that, even though these are their rights, he did not take advantage of them but worked to earn money to support himself, so that he would not be a burden to them. We know from Acts 18 that Paul was a tentmaker.

Therefore, this passage only applies to us if we are travelling around, as Paul did, preaching the Gospel in various towns. If we were doing that and people refused us food and hospitality, we could, rightly, point to this passage which talks about the rights of an Apostle. Jesus said something similar when he sent out the 12 and told them to stay in the houses where they were welcomed.

There are several other places where Paul confirms this Biblical Truth. Of course, if you have been convinced that this is not true, that God's Word was not written for our sake's, or just written for men of a certain DNA, then you can not benefit from the instruction,

Not everything in the Bible was written TO us.

As I said, the passage that you quoted, above, only applies TO us if we are itinerant preachers, travelling around preaching the Gospel. In those circumstances we have the right to expect that people/churches will provide hospitality/pay our expenses/feed us etc.
It doesn't mean, for example, that Christians can expect non believers to pay their mortgages etc while they sit around and don't work. So for the majority of believers in the west, that passage will not apply.

Does God care about oxen, facial hair, loose skin on the penis, etc. or are His Laws written for our sake's.

They were not written for our sakes - we weren't around then.
They were part of the laws given to a specific group of people - people who had been slaves in Egypt but who had been rescued by God. These laws were how the people would show that they were holy, which means "set apart" - dedicated to ONE God, separate and distinctive from those around the by their behaviour and lifestyle. When they sinned, they were to sacrifice animals to atone for that sin. (Animals were livelihood; a lamb without defect that was sold could have raised a lot of money.) They were to wear clothes of only one fibre, no mixing of materials; they were to abstain from certain foods and not mix with people who were said to be unclean - lepers, women who were bleeding, Gentiles etc etc. Avoiding thongs/people that were unclean was how that group of people were to show that they were, and wanted to be, clean.

These were not written TO us, though we can learn from them, and more importantly, how Jesus fulfilled them. WE are forgiven our sins if we repent and trust in Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God who gave his life for the sins of the world. WE are made clean if we confess our sins, 1 John 1:9.
Sure, the law and sacrificial system were a shadow of what was to come - the writer of Hebrews says so - but that does not mean that all the Mosaic laws were given TO us or written FOR us.

It is obvious that you have not really studied this part of God's Word.

No, I was asking a question.
The verse, "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God," was quoted; I was asking what they meant by EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God.

If you had, you would find that there are two Laws given on Sinai. One that defines sin. And a Temporary Law "ADDED because of Transgressions" which provides for the Atonement of Sin, "till the Lamb of God should come".

I am pretty sure that neither Moses nor the prophets taught that part of God's law was only temporary.
That makes it sound as though God was saying "I'm not going to send Jesus just yet; here are some stop gap laws to be getting on with in the meantime."

The Added Law is called the "Levitical Priesthood" in Hebrews 7-10. This Covenant God made with Levi was to be in force and effect until "After those days", when the Christ Himself would take over these Priesthood Duties. (Jer. 31:33,34)

None of that answers the question about whether the laws written in Leviticus are the word of God and are to be obeyed today?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Shall we pick and choose which of HIS Word's we will believe, and which we will not?

That's what I'm asking.
All the laws I have referred to food, mildew, clothes, not trimming your beard etc, are in the Bible; the Bible is the word of God.
IF you are of the view that we have to obey EVERY word that God has spoken and that it was all written FOR us and TO us; what about all these laws? Do you keep them? If not, why not?

That is your religious philosophy,

WHAT is my "religious philosophy"?

The Salvation of God is HIS Salvation. This is His Program. He sets the standard, He makes the rules. He created us with the free will to choose.

Yes; to choose his Son, or not.

You would most certainly follow the rules of your mother if you were in her house. it wouldn't matter what they were. If they regarded shoes, hat, food, company, curfew, bedtime, dinnertime, etc.

Why would the God of the Bible be treated any less, especially since HE gave His only Son to pay for your rebellion and indifference to His instruction in the first place?

Not all the words that are in the Bible are TO us.
We can learn from them - we can learn about God's character, the story of his people and see how God taught, instructed, protected and provided for them. We can see God's mercy and his grace; even though the people he had created rebelled against him, and did so again and again, he always provided for their forgiveness and redemption, though they deserved, and we deserve, to be cut off from God because of our disobedience.
The first time I tried to read the Bible I stopped at the second chapter of Leviticus - it was completely irrelevant to me, so I thought. But then I came to see how Christ had fulfilled the feasts and sacrifices, and it has become more important. That doesn't mean that I am bound by all the cultural rules and am unclean if I bleed or have a skin condition.

You are furthering a lot of modern religious tradition here which have little or no support from Scriptures. I'm of a mind that the Scriptures count and that HIS People should trust them for guidance. My hope is that you might reconsider some of the things you have been convinced of, and trust the Scriptures to lead you as they were written specifically for our Admonition, for our sake's no doubt.

No, I have actually been asking a simple question: how do people understand Scripture?
Is it that every word is literally true and HAS to apply to us today and be obeyed by us today?
My view is that it is all God's word and IS useful for teaching etc, 2 Timothy 3:16. But that, as the author of Hebrews says, "In the past God spoke to us through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son", Hebrews 1:1-2.

Some people appear to be saying that in order to follow Jesus' example and walk with him, we have to do exactly what he did - which means that, as he was a Jew and obeyed the law; we do too. Otherwise we are not following him.
I disagree.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well let's get back on topic. The topic is the Moses Seat.

Moses was speaking the Father's words. Yahshua was speaking the Fathers words. We have a match.

Yahshua said:

3 So whatever they tell you,

This means the words that they say from the Moses seat.

take care to do it.

"Do" is an action word. Yahshua is telling us to perform an action. What could that action be? I seems that it might have something to do with Moses. Lets read on; and maybe we'll find more cluesinst Torah.

This implies that they are not following the same instructions, given from the Moses Seat, that Yahshua told us that we must do (there's that action word again) ; but that they are not doing them. That sounds very hypocritical of them!

It looks like they talk the the talk; but they don't walk the walk.

Just a thought.

If they teach Torah, listen and do. But do not do what they do if it is against Torah...

 

[Studyman]

I've been asking a question about the Scriptures.
My Bible contains the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. God's laws, given to Moses at Sinai, are recorded in those books. These include food and hygiene laws, also laws about animal sacrifices.

A number of threads on these forums, over the years, have been about eating/not eating pork and keeping the Sabbath. These threads have insisted that we still need to keep God's law - it's written in Scripture so we, as Christians, have to obey Scripture. My point has always been that if you say you should keep God's law, then you need to keep ALL of it. That includes laws on not trimming beards, not wearing clothing of more than one fibre and so on. All these laws are written in Leviticus; if people only keep some of them, then they are being selective about God's laws. They are saying that they will only keep those that are easy/convenient for them.
Either we say that those laws were given to that group of people at that time, in that place, we can learn from them, but we do not need to apply them to our lives today, hundreds of centuries later; or we say "no, they are in Scripture, we have to keep, and apply, ALL of Scripture to our lives today."

You are free to listen and believe in whatever voice you desire, just as Eve was free to listen to and believe in whatever voice she desired. And God provided her with His Words, and also provided "another voice" for her to choose from.

In every case, there are two fundamental differences between the two voices. God's Voice always says to listen to and obey Him. The OTHER VOICE always says you don't need to listen to and obey Him.

It's that simple in my view.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You said of my post regarding the Law of God which on appearance looks like instruction on how to care for Farm animals. "You have taken that Scripture out of context. Paul is talking about the rights of an Apostle."

But Paul specifically tells you where His understanding of the rights of an Apostle comes from. It's just for you to believe God wrote His Laws for you, you would have to reject all the "other voices" which tell you God's Laws were NOT WRITTEN for you.

As a result, your religious views with forever contradict Paul's, because you do not believe the same as him regarding God's Words.

Acts 24: 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

This will result in you omitting more and more and more of the Holy Scriptures from your mind as time goes on. Which will result in a religious doctrine which can not be supported by "Every Word of God", but only by the twisting of a verse here and a verse there.

So then, as the "voice" of the garden quoted some of God's Word to deceive Eve, so you too, will be able to use "some" of God's Word to justify your religion, just as the Pharisees used "some of God's Word" to justify their religion while "Omitting the weightier matters of the law".

What I am advocating is the trust and belief in God and His Word over any other religious voice. Paul was given the understand of the Command "Thou shall not muzzle the Ox that treadeth out the grain", because HE understood this Law, as with them all, were written for him, for his sake's no doubt, and the New Covenant Church he was instructing.

He studied and prayed and had Faith in this God, and God was faithful to reveal the purpose of this instruction. Just as Jesus promised.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

As with so many things, this is a question about interpreting Scripture.

I agree, but there is a huge difference between interpreting scripture, and omitting them from our mind and consideration completely. Paul never omitted Scripture, he knew they were written for him, and set about in Faith to understand them.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The OT was not written for New Covenant believers.

This phrase is not spoken anywhere in the entire Bible, although it could have been if God desired for us to believe this doctrine.

This is a perfect example of listening to "the other voice" and building a religion, or religious philosophy around it. And it directly Contradicts both the Word's of Jesus, and Paul, as well as the entire Law and Prophets.

I would implore you to listen to the Word's of God of the Bible, which Jesus said were Spirit and Life. But I also know Jesus Himself said few would really believe in Him and His Word's.

For me, I am convinced, as was Paul, that the Holy Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, and they are "ALL" inspired by God. As such, you and I are in a different place, and will not agree on the Gospel being taught.

So there is not really any reason to continue to argue or debate. I acknowledge that it is just a Book, and may be fiction and you may be right in your reluctance to believe in it. But it is my hope that the Promises contained therein are Truth, and it is MY Faith that God's Word is Truth, and my experience for 30 years that His Law perfectly addresses the human condition, and that His Law is perfect instruction for me in this time and place.

It kind of like the phrase "you had to be there" to understand.

I hope you find the truth God has prepared for you. thanks for the discussion and thoughtful reply.

 

[Gary K]

I wrote a post asking what people mean when they talk about "the law", so that we know if we are all talking about the same thing.
Some people have said that we are to believe every word that comes from the mouth of God. According to my Bible, God commanded the Hebrews to keep food and hygiene laws and offer animal sacrifices. Is this part of the law that we are supposed to keep?

You brought up the new covenant back in post #162 of this thread. So, I asked you about it. What is your understanding of it? I haven't been tracking all your conversations on this thread so I haven't been reading all your posts to other people. I've just been waiting for your responses to me. Then you start demanding I answer questions I hadn't even read.

I first posted on this thread a couple of pages ago. I've not read more than your responses to me and my own posts. So answer the question I asked rather than demanding I answer the question you addressed to other people.

 

[AbbaLove]

Guys, the OP is just stirring the pot (Rabbinic Judaism vs Christianity). Messianic Judaism doesn't believe in the "Seat of Moses" under the New Covenant beginning in John and then with the empowering of the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire in Acts 2.

The OP would have you believe that Matthew 23:2 is part of the New Covenant which is false.

Matthew 23:2 “The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe.​

Matthew 23:2 is only observed within Rabbinic Judaism. They like the Pharisees don't believe in Yeshua as Israel's Messiah or as the Lamb of GOD. Rabbinic Judaism doesn't believe that the books of the NT are inspired by the Holy Spirit as ordained by GOD. Whereas the SOP of Messianic Judaism (pro-Paul) believes that even the writings of Paul are ordained by GOD ...

"The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us."
(part of MJs SOP)​

IMO, the OP needs further training. Just because of his new status doesn't give him the right to impose his legalistic beliefs into these Christian theology forums. He is just stirring the pot as if Rabbinic Judaism is just as valid as Christianity.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are free to listen and believe in whatever voice you desire, just as Eve was free to listen to and believe in whatever voice she desired.

Are you implying that I'm listening to someone other than God?

And God provided her with His Words,

He did not speak directly to Eve.
Eve hadn't been created when he spoke to Adam commanding him not to eat from the tree.

In every case, there are two fundamental differences between the two voices. God's Voice always says to listen to and obey Him. The OTHER VOICE always says you don't need to listen to and obey Him.

Are you implying that I'm listening to the voice of the evil one?

You said of my post regarding the Law of God which on appearance looks like instruction on how to care for Farm animals. "You have taken that Scripture out of context. Paul is talking about the rights of an Apostle."

But Paul specifically tells you where His understanding of the rights of an Apostle comes from. It's just for you to believe God wrote His Laws for you, you would have to reject all the "other voices" which tell you God's Laws were NOT WRITTEN for you.

Voices like Paul, and the book of Hebrews, you mean?

You haven't yet defined what God's law is.
Does it include all the laws in Leviticus, or is it something else?

As a result, your religious views with forever contradict Paul's, because you do not believe the same as him regarding God's Words.

What part of Paul's words don't I believe - the bit where he says that all Gentiles, after receiving the Gospel, must keep the law and be circumcised? Where is that bit again?

This will result in you omitting more and more and more of the Holy Scriptures from your mind as time goes on.

I don't know why you've made that judgement.

So then, as the "voice" of the garden quoted some of God's Word to deceive Eve, so you too, will be able to use "some" of God's Word to justify your religion,

I don't have a "religion", I have a relationship with Christ.

What I am advocating is the trust and belief in God and His Word over any other religious voice.

Why are you making the judgement that I am listening to "another voice", just because you don't appear to agree with/understand the principles of Biblical interpretation?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I have no problem with those words of Jesus.
What I disagree with is the idea that because Jesus is the eternal Word who is one with God the Father, and because it was God the Father who gave Moses the law, that means that Jesus, indirectly, wrote the OT law. Therefore if anyone says they are following Jesus' example, they have to obey it. That doesn't follow.

I agree, but there is a huge difference between interpreting scripture, and omitting them from our mind and consideration completely.

Are you saying that I'm doing that?

This phrase is not spoken anywhere in the entire Bible, although it could have been if God desired for us to believe this doctrine.

No, it's not.
But the teaching that the old covenant is obsolete, is, Hebrews 8:13.
So also is Paul's teaching that people under the law are like Abraham's first son, born to a slave girl; while we are children of the promise, Galatians 4:21-31. Jesus was descended from Isaac, the child of the promise, not from Ishmael.

I would implore you to listen to the Word's of God of the Bible, which Jesus said were Spirit and Life.

Are you saying that if I don't accept that every word of the Bible is applicable for us today, then I don't believe God?

I guess that answers my question; so DO you believe that EVERY law written in Leviticus is to be obeyed today? If so, do you do it - including animal sacrifices?

But I also know Jesus Himself said few would really believe in Him and His Word's.

You show me where Jesus, when he walked on earth, taught Gentiles to obey Jewish food and hygiene laws, and I'll obey them.

For me, I am convinced, as was Paul, that the Holy Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, and they are "ALL" inspired by God.

"Inspired by God", and "applicable and have to be practiced by us today" are two different things.
Was Paul's instruction to Timothy to stop drinking water and start drinking wine, inspired by God? Does that mean we should drink 8 glasses of wine a day instead of 8 glasses of water?
Was Paul's teaching that widows under the age of 60 should not receive financial assistance from the church, 1 Timothy 5:11-15, because they are idle gossips, inspired by God? Does that mean that the church would tell a woman in her 40s whose husband has been killed in war, that she is on her own and deserves no help?

As such, you and I are in a different place, and will not agree on the Gospel being taught.

I disagree with you; yes.
I'm perfectly well aware of what the Gospel is, however.

So there is not really any reason to continue to argue or debate. I acknowledge that it is just a Book, and may be fiction and you may be right in your reluctance to believe in it.

There's no point debating if you are going to make those sorts of judgements about me, no.
You couldn't be more wrong.

But it is my hope that the Promises contained therein are Truth, and it is MY Faith that God's Word is Truth,

Yes, mine too.
But Jesus did not ever say that we will only receive his promises if we keep every word written in Leviticus.
Paul say that we have every spiritual blessing IN CHRIST; not by keeping the law.

I hope you find the truth God has prepared for you.

Oh I have.
I've been reading the Bible and following him for over 40 years; I know the One who is the Truth.

 

[Strong in Him]

You brought up the new covenant back in post #162 of this thread. So, I asked you about it. What is your understanding of it?

The New Covenant was prophesied through Jeremiah, Jeremiah 31:31-34, where God said that he would put his word in people's hearts, that they would be able to know him and that he would forgive their sin and remember their wickedness no more.
Jesus fulfilled that covenant when he was born as a human and lived among us to show, and teach, us what God is like. He sealed the Covenant with his blood when he went to the cross, offering his life as a sacrifice for our sins. And after the ascension he sent his Spirit to live in us.
It IS possible for everyone to know God, from the greatest to the least; we can all have the Word of life in our hearts, and through Jesus we have been reconciled to God.

Now maybe you can show me where Jesus taught that the food and hygiene laws in Leviticus are important for salvation and/or need to be kept by Gentile followers?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The New Covenant was prophesied through Jeremiah, Jeremiah 31:31-34, where God said that he would put his word in people's hearts, that they would be able to know him and that he would forgive their sin and remember their wickedness no more.

Now maybe you can show me where Jesus taught that the food and hygiene laws in Leviticus are important for salvation and/or need to be kept by Gentile followers?

WHO was the covenant in Jeremiah with?

 

[Strong in Him]

WHO was the covenant in Jeremiah with?

Israel.
And Jesus came as a Jew - salvation truly was from the Jews.
Yet he said at the Last Supper "this is my blood of the New Covenant, shed for many for the forgiveness of sins". Not, "shed for the house of Israel"; shed for many.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets; all the prophecies made to Israel are fulfilled in Jesus.

 

[AbbaLove]

WHO was the covenant in Jeremiah with?

Christianity is now under a New Covenant including both Jewish and non-Jewish believers in in the Son of YHVH being Yeshua HaMashiach.

HaMashiach—meaning “The Anointed One” is conferred on YESHUA (meaning GOD'S Salvation" for mankind's redemption, eternally. We think of the English word “Messiah” and the Greek “Christos” as both meaning “The Anointed One” in much the same way that “HaMashiach” in Hebrew does.