Are there sincere seekers in hell?

Clizby WampusCat

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Because you will not believe me. You have spent years seeking, searching, questioning and it has gotten you no where. What I have to say will not make a bit of difference. You have quenched the work of the Holy Spirit so no amount of truth will pernitrate your condition. Doubt.
This is untrue. How about you respond to my response to this accusation since you have accused me of this many times now and I have already responded to it.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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To add to my previous comment...
You claim to be an Atheist, yet no true Atheist would be caught dead seeking God. They KNOW God does not exist.
Please stop telling others how to label themselves. Atheist accurately defines my position on God, it is your ignorance of the definition that leads you to this conclusion. I suggest you use the internet to educate yourself on the definition if atheist

So my friend, stop hiding behind a label that you do not carry. Admit you have doubted all your life and now you are faced with a decision you are not willing to make.
Please respond to my response to this accusation now that you have accused me for a 4th time I think now. I have explained my position in length do you care to respond to it or just keep telling falsehoods about me?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You were talking about hunting Bigfoot earlier.
This particular BigFoot left some VERY big BigFoot footprints.
The Universe, for one. The biggest most unimaginably impossibly large footprint there could be.
Why is this evidence for God?
Consciousness, for another.
Why is this evidence for God?
Good, for another.
Why is this evidence for God?
Evil, for another.
Why is this evidence for God?
Conscience, for another.
Why is this evidence for God?
Calvary, for another.
How do you know the events at Calvary actually happened.

Just giving a list of words is not very convincing. Have you thought about why these are good evidences for belief or not?
 
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Petros2015

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Why is this evidence for God? (the Universe)

Well, to start with that one, if there was a Creator, the Creator has to Create something.
A Creator that creates nothing isn't a Creator.

So if we started without a Universe, I would have to say there would be no evidence for a Creator.

It wouldn't rule out the presence of a "God", but it would rule out evidence for a *creative* God. And since the God hadn't created anything, I guess it would be God of Nothing (or maybe just God of Itself), which doesn't make it much of a God. On the other hand, it hasn't created anything that would argue about the fact with it, so if it wanted to take the title defacto, I guess it could... No one would be around to notice.

But we don't start out with nothing, we start out with something. And we don't just start out with a little something, we start out with A LOT of something.

100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way.

That's 1 Galaxy!

Research released in 2016 revised the number of galaxies in the observable universe from a previous estimate of 200 billion (2×1011) to a suggested two trillion (2×1012) or more and, overall, as many as an estimated 1×1024 stars (more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth).

1 of two trillion (2×1012). Galaxies. lol

"Seek and ye shall find" He said.

If you are going to do any seeking, you have to have a you to do the seeking, and you have to have a place to do the seeking in.

We have a You. And we have a place to do the seeking in.

If you are going to go looking for BigFoot, and BigFoot's first track is the size of the Universe, I think the important question here might not be "what if I don't find him?"

I think the important question might be "what if I do?"
 
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Petros2015

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That verse is very special and specific to me. During a period of seeking in college days, I was so angry with this verse, angry with God for it - I had a interpretation of it like "I'm not going to give you the time of day unless you are screaming for it". I think this was a misunderstanding of the character of God. Also things like "without faith it is impossible to please to God"

Many, many years later in AA, I read something in the Big Book of AA:

The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.

And I now understand it differently, understand the character of God differently. It's a little like, if you love and trust someone you will pretty much hear things they say one way, and if you hate and mistrust someone you will pretty much hear things another way. And faith is a bit like that - it's not so much believing that something exists that you have no physical evidence for, but believing in the character of that something. There have been times when people in my life have had faith in me and times when people in my life have not had faith in me, and I can tell you one thing for certain: without faith it is impossible to please Petros ;) Apparently, I am my Father's son. Of my own self, I tended to 'exceed expectations' of me whether those were good or bad, justified or not. I don't think this was a good thing, it was simply how I lived. But in that sense, people found what they sought, often 3 or 4 times what they sought for better or for worse. I made sure of it. These days, I prefer they find Christ and that seems to work better for everyone.

Somewhere, somehow, things changed. And faith in God grew. I didn't do that myself, I was utterly incapable of doing that. He did that. These days I interpret the scripture

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
[Because that's where I was hiding all along] ;)
 
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Petros2015

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I know that the bible is in contradiction to my experience now. It says if you seek you will find. That was not true for me so I know that those verses are untrue.

It's pretty funny.

I had to confront this too. There were lots of things in the Bible that seem contradictory to experience, science, you name it. One thing I could say for sure - I existed, and I existed in a world where there was a Bible. And some people believed it was the infallible Word of God and some people did not. Some believed that God put it here deliberately and it was inexorably perfect guidance. Inside were some things that I genuinely believed and loved and made sense "you will be forgiven as you forgive, judged as you judge".

There are also, I would note, some followers who weren't even seekers (or they didn't know they were). They still arrived with Christ and in his favor:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


But, I wasn't particularly one of those either lol.

So I know you questioned "How do you know the events at Calvary actually happened."
Well, I'm pretty sure SOMETHING happened.

There's an annoying slogan in AA:
"Everything happens for a reason"
Most interpret this as "it will make sense later even if things are horrible now, a greater good will come of it". Which is fine. "All things work for the good for them that love the Lord" basically.
And I do interpret and believe in it that way; but there is another way also - looking backwards instead of forwards. "Everything happens for a reason" can also mean, "what is happening now makes sense based on what has happened before"

I was sitting in an AA meeting listening to the stories and thinking.

"Where did this meeting come from? Drunks don't do this sort of thing."
And they don't.
You know what drunks do?
They drink, resent, lose their sanity and die cursing God and everyone else. Jails, institutions and death.
They don't start multi-million member global spiritual recovery organizations like AA based on selfless altruism
"God never gave me a miracle"
Well, yeah, he kinda did.
As soon as I was at a point that I sought an AA meeting, I found one.
AA was started in 1938.
It was already there.
It was prepared in advance.
In fact, on my street, there was a little church 10 doors down.
Had been there for years. There was an AA meeting in it every week for like a decade waiting for me.
And drunks don't do that sort of thing.
Not unless they meet God and God gives them an awful lot of help.

Later I looked into the roots of AA.
Oxford Group.
Christian.
A few years later, I stood in a Christian Church.
In North America, circa 2015 AD.
Dedicated to a Jew.
"Where did this Church come from?"

Jewish fisherman don't do this sort of thing.
You know what Jewish fishermen do?
They stay in Israel and they fish.
Unless...
...unless they meet God and God gives them an awful lot of help.

Whenever I said "Everything happens for a reason"
I kept looking back
And when I really looked back
And could see from my life
To AA
To the founding of AA
To the Oxford Group
To the founding of the Oxford Group
To the Church I was standing in

What was the reason?
It all went back to the Cross on Calvary; ALL of it.

I don't necessarily think of the Bible as infallible or exact the way that most Christians do

But I can tell you this:

It's what I was given to work with. I can say that for a certainty. It was carried forward 2000 years to me, and it exists with me here. Some it leads to Christ, some give it lip service, some take one look at it and head the other direction. Remember, the early Christians didn't have it. But what it's really doing is describing a person. And when you realize that that is a person that you want to meet and follow, and that you need to meet and follow, and that has been trying to meet YOU this whole time - your whole life will become the evidence that you are seeking.

At least, that's my hope for you.

God Bless
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This is untrue. How about you respond to my response to this accusation since you have accused me of this many times now and I have already responded to it.
I hope one day you find your answer. I will not be able to answer your question to your satisfaction. Thank you for engaging.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Well, to start with that one, if there was a Creator, the Creator has to Create something.
A Creator that creates nothing isn't a Creator.

So if we started without a Universe, I would have to say there would be no evidence for a Creator.

It wouldn't rule out the presence of a "God", but it would rule out evidence for a *creative* God. And since the God hadn't created anything, I guess it would be God of Nothing (or maybe just God of Itself), which doesn't make it much of a God. On the other hand, it hasn't created anything that would argue about the fact with it, so if it wanted to take the title defacto, I guess it could... No one would be around to notice.

But we don't start out with nothing, we start out with something. And we don't just start out with a little something, we start out with A LOT of something.

100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way.

That's 1 Galaxy!

Research released in 2016 revised the number of galaxies in the observable universe from a previous estimate of 200 billion (2×1011) to a suggested two trillion (2×1012) or more and, overall, as many as an estimated 1×1024 stars (more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth).

1 of two trillion (2×1012). Galaxies. lol
How does the size of the universe good evidence for a god. Size is a relative property. We know what is created because we have good evidence for a creator like a car. We can track down the creator(s). With the universe we have no evidence that it was created by a god. So the answer is I don't know why things exist until we have evidence for why.

"Seek and ye shall find" He said.

If you are going to do any seeking, you have to have a you to do the seeking, and you have to have a place to do the seeking in.

We have a You. And we have a place to do the seeking in.

If you are going to go looking for BigFoot, and BigFoot's first track is the size of the Universe, I think the important question here might not be "what if I don't find him?"

I think the important question might be "what if I do?"
If God lets me know He exists I will follow Him if I think He is moral and has my well being in mind.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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It's pretty funny.

I had to confront this too. There were lots of things in the Bible that seem contradictory to experience, science, you name it. One thing I could say for sure - I existed, and I existed in a world where there was a Bible. And some people believed it was the infallible Word of God and some people did not. Some believed that God put it here deliberately and it was inexorably perfect guidance. Inside were some things that I genuinely believed and loved and made sense "you will be forgiven as you forgive, judged as you judge".

There are also, I would note, some followers who weren't even seekers (or they didn't know they were). They still arrived with Christ and in his favor:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


But, I wasn't particularly one of those either lol.

So I know you questioned "How do you know the events at Calvary actually happened."
Well, I'm pretty sure SOMETHING happened.

There's an annoying slogan in AA:
"Everything happens for a reason"
Most interpret this as "it will make sense later even if things are horrible now, a greater good will come of it". Which is fine. "All things work for the good for them that love the Lord" basically.
And I do interpret and believe in it that way; but there is another way also - looking backwards instead of forwards. "Everything happens for a reason" can also mean, "what is happening now makes sense based on what has happened before"

I was sitting in an AA meeting listening to the stories and thinking.

"Where did this meeting come from? Drunks don't do this sort of thing."
And they don't.
You know what drunks do?
They drink, resent, lose their sanity and die cursing God and everyone else. Jails, institutions and death.
They don't start multi-million member global spiritual recovery organizations like AA based on selfless altruism
"God never gave me a miracle"
Well, yeah, he kinda did.
As soon as I was at a point that I sought an AA meeting, I found one.
AA was started in 1938.
It was already there.
It was prepared in advance.
In fact, on my street, there was a little church 10 doors down.
Had been there for years. There was an AA meeting in it every week for like a decade waiting for me.
And drunks don't do that sort of thing.
Not unless they meet God and God gives them an awful lot of help.

Later I looked into the roots of AA.
Oxford Group.
Christian.
A few years later, I stood in a Christian Church.
In North America, circa 2015 AD.
Dedicated to a Jew.
"Where did this Church come from?"

Jewish fisherman don't do this sort of thing.
You know what Jewish fishermen do?
They stay in Israel and they fish.
Unless...
...unless they meet God and God gives them an awful lot of help.

Whenever I said "Everything happens for a reason"
I kept looking back
And when I really looked back
And could see from my life
To AA
To the founding of AA
To the Oxford Group
To the founding of the Oxford Group
To the Church I was standing in

What was the reason?
It all went back to the Cross on Calvary; ALL of it.

I don't necessarily think of the Bible as infallible or exact the way that most Christians do

But I can tell you this:

It's what I was given to work with. I can say that for a certainty. It was carried forward 2000 years to me, and it exists with me here. Some it leads to Christ, some give it lip service, some take one look at it and head the other direction. Remember, the early Christians didn't have it. But what it's really doing is describing a person. And when you realize that that is a person that you want to meet and follow, and that you need to meet and follow, and that has been trying to meet YOU this whole time - your whole life will become the evidence that you are seeking.

At least, that's my hope for you.

God Bless
Thanks for the sermon. But none of what you said can be demonstrated by evidence to be true.
 
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Petros2015

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Thanks for the sermon. But none of what you said can be demonstrated by evidence to be true.

Very well then - keep looking for Truth, keep seeking it regardless of any expectation of what you might find or not find, what's been written or not written, said or not said. I'm pretty sure we'll meet at the end in the same place, the source of Truth. Not a bad place to be.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Very well then - keep looking for Truth, keep seeking it regardless of any expectation of what you might find or not find, what's been written or not written, said or not said. I'm pretty sure we'll meet at the end in the same place, the source of Truth. Not a bad place to be.
There is no ultimate source of truth that can be demonstrated to exist.
 
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Petros2015

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There is no ultimate source of truth that can be demonstrated to exist.

No?
I want you to do two things:

Do something good, and hide it, deny it, and tell no one.
And then
Do something evil (as evil as the good thing you chose to do), and hide it, deny it, and tell no one.

In the first case, pray and ask for a suggestion. Really, on your knees. If you get one, follow it. You might not get it while you are praying, you might get it shortly after as you are going about your day a little frustrated that you didn't get one 15 minutes ago. It shouldn't be about 'I want you to prove you exist'. That's no way to start a conversation, try more along the lines of 'what you you like for me to do for you today if I put myself at your service? what would please you?'

I think you might find God quicker than you expect.
 
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Petros2015

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One time, I had a friend who made a statement
"God just keeps showing up today!"
And I thought about it...
And I started to wonder...
What if it *isn't* that "God just keeps showing up today"
What if... it's just that there is somehow More God in the direction she is moving?
Just as you would expect someone lost in a dark forest
To say 'there is more light and warmth and comfort in this direction'
As they moved towards a campfire to sit with friends.

Because she was taking the time to ask God
"In what direction should I be moving today? How can I be useful to you? I am open to this"...
She saw "God showing up" as circumstances aligned to resolve problems
And provide opportunities
And points of usefulness to God for her
And I don't think she was mistaken
Those were things already prepared in advance for her
But if she never prayed
Or prayed selfishly
She would never see anything but a circumstance
That she would judge as 'benefitting me' or 'not benefitting me'
...Life without prayer is like life wearing a blindfold

No one ever says 'thank you' for a circumstance
What she saw, were "miracles"
Many, for others, small ones, small joys
But she got to be a part of them.

Miracles, in my opinion, are the circumstances that were pre-aligned to assist those
Doing the Will of God
But if you never ask God what his Will is
Or ask, and receive and never try to do it
You'll never see miracles, you'll only see coincidences
And you'll never say 'thank you'
For letting me be a part of this.

To me, God is a bit like the Conductor in this clip
When I realized what it was he was trying to get us to play all this time
All the while I had been in the process of taking my instrument and smashing it
Because no one was playing the music that I wanted
I ceased fighting
And started paying attention
And got to join in.

 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No?
I want you to do two things:

Do something good, and hide it, deny it, and tell no one.
And then
Do something evil (as evil as the good thing you chose to do), and hide it, deny it, and tell no one.

In the first case, pray and ask for a suggestion. Really, on your knees. If you get one, follow it. You might not get it while you are praying, you might get it shortly after as you are going about your day a little frustrated that you didn't get one 15 minutes ago. It shouldn't be about 'I want you to prove you exist'. That's no way to start a conversation, try more along the lines of 'what you you like for me to do for you today if I put myself at your service? what would please you?'

I think you might find God quicker than you expect.
No, and here is why. Look through this thread and you will find different Christians telling me to do different things to find gods existence. Why is yours the way and not theirs? Also, this implies that I have not sought God, this is untrue.

Now let us get back to the topic. If I sincerely want to know if god exists and god wants me to know he exists it should not matter what I do or think, he can still convince me if he wants to. So either God does not exist or god does not want me to know he exists. Either way how is this my fault?
 
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Petros2015

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No, and here is why. Look through this thread and you will find different Christians telling me to do different things to find gods existence. Why is yours the way and not theirs? Also, this implies that I have not sought God, this is untrue.

I'm not implying you haven't sought God...
But I don't know what method you have used.
Clearly it hasn't worked.
I'm suggesting one that I think will work
Because of my life experience and my understanding of the nature of God
It might not be particularly pleasant
(the second part)
A little bit like playing with Holy Fire
But I think you know that.
And since you think there is no such thing as Holy Fire
Or that it doesn't care what you do
What I've suggested, effectively
Is that you stick your hand in it.
 
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Petros2015

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Why is yours the way and not theirs?

Well, I'm a Doctor.
Well, actually I just play one on TV.
Well, actually I just watch one on TV.

upload_2020-12-14_12-21-31.png


Also, there's a little bit of scriptural reasoning behind the first part of the suggestion; it is taken from this:

Matthew 6:5-6

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And also this Matthew 6:2-4

2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, so that they will be praised by people. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your charitable giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

And also this, Luke 11

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

The Lord's Prayer follows, but also some other interesting things:

5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.

This is followed by:

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Which is interesting to me and kind of core to your OP and question.

So - what do you see in verses 5-8?

Here's what I see.
Is the man seeking something for himself?
No. Someone else has come to visit him. And he has 'nothing to offer'. He seeks on behalf of another. I believe, that this is the persistent seeking that will be rewarded. If your persistent seeking is always of and for yourself... I'm not sure how well that will go. I would expect to be pounding a lot of sand, which is what it sounds like you have been doing. Being a God-Seeker and a Self-Seeker are two entirely different things, though at first it's almost impossible to see the difference. In between there though, is a For-Others-Seeker. Sometimes that is easier to get to. Oddly enough, that is the start of Love. And stranger still, the start of Love, is the start of God.

1 John 4:7-21

As for the second part, Luke 8

17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known and brought to light.

I've been on the wrong side of that particular piece of truth before; the second part of my suggestion would put you on the wrong side of it, and I think the heart of you knows it. If you are thinking there isn't a right/wrong side or that isn't truth, I'm expecting it may clear you of that notion.

I'm not sure you'll say "thank you" though. Hopefully you will stop at the first suggestion. But the two suggestions together, ought to give you a really clear contrast if you need one. And I think that in that contrast you'll find God, undeniably.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Jul 8, 2019
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I'm not implying you haven't sought God...
But I don't know what method you have used.
Why should it matter? If God wants me to know he exists and he does exist it should not matter what I do or think. He should be able to convince me with good evidence. The fact that I am not convinced indicates he does not exist or does not want me to know he exists.
 
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