Teaching bibles view of sexual ethics could be hateful under new law

[rjs330]

Chapter and verse?

Exodus 20:14

The fact that men did it, never meant God was okay with it. Jesus himself reiterated this concept when he talked about marriage.

Man is sinful and does sinful things. God allows it and also allows for the consequences as well.
If God was going to kill everyone for failing to follow his will, no one would be alive. As it is we will all have to be judged by Christ in the end anyway.

 

[rjs330]

it also says that the King shouldn't multiply horses. Does that mean the King is allowed only one horse?


Yet David had 8 wives and at least 10 concubines 2 Samuel 20:3 and God himself said this wasn't a sin 1:Kings 15:5 and that God would have been happy to give David more wives and concubines.

Apparently according to you this passage indicates David never did anything wrong except for the matter of Uriah.

Yet David himself said on many occasions that he sinned a lot. Another one was when he did the census. The Bible tells us all have sinned. There is passage after passage indicating that people continually sin. Including David. So with that in mind, it's obvious that the verse is Kings was not referring to a sinless David except for Uriah. This was obviously David's greatest sin and noteworthy after his death. It's like all of us. I have sinned often, but after my death, there may be a singular thing I did in my life that was particularly noteworthy of mention.

So sorry, that passage does not indicate God was okay with all the sins David committed. Not is he okay with all of yours and all of mine.

 

[SilverBear]

Exodus 20:14

The fact that men did it, never meant God was okay with it. Jesus himself reiterated this concept when he talked about marriage.

God's willingness to give David more wives and concubines says that God was OK with it.

 

[SilverBear]

Apparently according to you this passage indicates David never did anything wrong except for the matter of Uriah.


Yet David himself said on many occasions that he sinned a lot. Another one was when he did the census. The Bible tells us all have sinned. There is passage after passage indicating that people continually sin. Including David. So with that in mind, it's obvious that the verse is Kings was not referring to a sinless David except for Uriah.

[/quote] For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life - except in the case of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15:5

God says David kept all of his commandments all the days of his life, aside from having Uriah killed. So multiple wives and concubines is not a sin according to God. Or was God wrong?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

She was his concubine. God was always OK with concubines

Nope. Original intent is ONE man, ONE woman for life.

Gen 2:22-24 2 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[1] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.


Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart; but it was not this way from the beginning. 9Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."

They had concubines during a period of time in the OT because God was patient with them and didn't strike them all dead. King David and King Solomon had many problems precisely BECAUSE of multiple wives and mistresses. Had they done what God said, married one woman inside the tribes of Israel, and avoided the women of the surrounding nations and their customs and religions, as warned repeatedly by prophets to do, they would have avoided many problems.

God established marriage as one woman, one man for life and Jesus reiterated it.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

God's willingness to give David more wives and concubines says that God was OK with it.

God was never willing. He was patient with this violation, because David had a right heart, even if he did wrong things, like impregnate Bathsheba, and then have her husband killed.

Scripture says directly: But the thing that David had done was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Samuel the prophet comes to tell David he had sinned, and that child didn't live. David repented.

God allowed the sin for a time, of taking other women not your wife, partly because the culture made them prey if they were not married to (or protected by) some man, and only rich men could afford to ake several. An unmarried woman could not provide for herself in those days.

God never approves adultery however.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

did you even read what i posted?

Yes, sorry, but if you make the assertion, you have to support it. It isn't up to others to do the work for you and go through dozens or hundreds of sermons trying to find what you assert is there.

Nevertheless, out of curiosity, I did a search on the first one. You trotted out a criminal as an example. Sure, we can all find outliers who get in trouble with what they are speaking about. That happens in all corners. Didn't see anything about the assertion you made that he was: "calling for the mass killings of millions of people" though

 

[SilverBear]

They had concubines during a period of time in the OT because God was patient with them and didn't strike them all dead. .

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. 2 Kings 2:23-24

God killed small children because a couple of boys were making fun of a bald man...but he was patient with all the men with multiple wives and concubines....riiiiiiight.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Has slavery always been wrong? Because he sure gave some very detailed instructions on how to go about doing that. If no, when did he change his mind about it?

No, there are some rules reflecting the cultural practice that existed, not praising it.

 

[SilverBear]

Yes, sorry, but if you make the assertion, you have to support it. It isn't up to others to do the work for you and go through dozens or hundreds of sermons trying to find what you assert is there.

Nevertheless, out of curiosity, I did a search on the first one. You trotted out a criminal as an example. Sure, we can all find outliers who get in trouble with what they are speaking about. That happens in all corners.

you have made an unsupported assertion here.

 

[SilverBear]

No, there are some rules reflecting the cultural practice that existed, not praising it.

and nothing condemning it

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. 2 Kings 2:23-24

God killed small children because a couple of boys were making fun of a bald man...but he was patient with all the men with multiple wives and concubines....riiiiiiight.

Deflection. We are speaking of this concubine issue. Not going to conflate it with another because you cannot deal with the situation being discussed.

 

[Skewpoint]

No, there are some rules reflecting the cultural practice that existed, not praising it.

Exodus 21 reads as a rule book, not a reflecting of cultural norms. Perhaps you should read it and try answering again.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

you have made an unsupported assertion here.

Back up your claims, as I asked, and then I will deal with them. Deflecting won't work here, sorry. You DID trot out a criminal.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Exodus 21 reads as a rule book, not a reflecting of cultural norms. Perhaps you should read it and try answering again.

I have read it. Nowhere is slavery extolled and praised, as I clearly said. Merely reflected in the law for the Jews.

 

[hedrick]

Here’s a recent discussion from a Scottish paper. It’s pretty clear that the law won’t be passed until it’s clear that it won’t criminalize unpopular opinion. Insight: Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf on how personal experience is driving him to get hate crime bill into law

The original draft had potentially dangerous language, but the Christianity Today article was unnecessarily inflammatory. Will they post a prominent update when the law actually goes through?

 

[SilverBear]

God was never willing.

I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 2 Samuel 12:8

 

[SilverBear]

Yes, sorry, but if you make the assertion, you have to support it. It isn't up to others to do the work for you and go through dozens or hundreds of sermons trying to find what you assert is there.

Nevertheless, out of curiosity, I did a search on the first one. You trotted out a criminal as an example. Sure, we can all find outliers who get in trouble with what they are speaking about. That happens in all corners. Didn't see anything about the assertion you made that he was: "calling for the mass killings of millions of people" though

you asked who would be preaching such things and you got an answer. I'm not going to conflate it with another because you cannot deal with the situation being discussed.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

you asked who would be preaching such things and you got an answer. I'm not going to conflate it with another because you cannot deal with the situation being discussed.

So you cannot respond on the merits. So noted. Moving on.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 2 Samuel 12:8

2 Samuel. Context is everything.

Nowhere does God commend additional wives. In fact it is specifically forbidden:

First Kings: 11: 1King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh—women of Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon, as well as Hittite women. 2These women were from the nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, for surely they will turn your hearts after their gods.” Yet Solomon clung to these women in love. 3He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines—and his wives turned his heart away. 4For when Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and he was not wholeheartedly devoted to the LORD his God, as his father David had been. 5Solomon followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and Milcoma the abomination of the Ammonites. 6So Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD; unlike his father David, he did not follow the LORD completely.

David:
7Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8I gave your master’s house to you and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah, and if that was not enough, I would have given you even more. 9Why then have you despised the command of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You put Uriah the Hittite to the sword and took his wife as your own, for you have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’ 11This is what the LORD says: ‘I will raise up adversity against you from your own house. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to another, and he will lie with them in broad daylight. 12You have acted in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’ ”

Note that David was given the wives of Saul along with his stuff. David followed the Lord in his heart; he was quick to repent when he did wrong. But he is not commended for taking additional wives.

2 Samuel 12: 7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10‘Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12‘Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15So Nathan went to his house.

In the 2 Samuel 12 passage you reference, God reminds David that He already gave him everything and is basically asking him why would he commit adultery with another man's wife?

If God gave David wives/concubines as a reward for his loyalty, what kind of reward would it be for him to have to take care of a lot of women he didn't know and didn't care about? Well, they already belonged to the King, and men had to take care of women in those days; they couldn't provide for themselves. If Nathan is only saying, "Hey, you had ALL these women - why Uriah's wife, Bathsheba?" then why the mention of all the stuff too? God basically said that He had done everything for David. Now the Sword will never depart from David's house, and he has to take care of all these women! Note that his sons mentioned are only the sons of his own wives.

You simply cannot use this verse and this context to state authoritatively that God approves of polygamy.