Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

You seem to think all hair works the same, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case given the variations that exist for the quality of hair as straight, curly, wavy, oily, dry, etc.

Okay; it was not my intention to speak on behalf of every single person on earth. Some people might have hair too thin to grow them, my point was that people of all races can grow dreadlocks.
This guy does an excellent job of making my point. He also points out the specific areas of Africa where dreadlocks is a part of their culture

 

[muichimotsu]

Nobody needs to give acknowledgment to black women in regards to dreads; because black women have no right to claim dreads as their own. You seem to have this idea that Africa is one country with one culture; it is not. Africa is a continent consisting of 54 separate nations; each nation with different cultures and though some of those nations have a culture of dreadlocks, most don’t. For a black man/woman born in the USA to wear dreadlocks is cultural appropriating to the same extent as a white man/woman born in the USA wearing dreadlocks. If you are not from any of those specific African nations where dreadlocks is a historic part of their culture, using your logic; you are cultural appropriating regardless of your skin color. It is the ultimate of ignorance and hypocrisy for an African American with dreadlocks to point the finger at a white person with dreadlocks and cry foul

Even if we grant that dreadlocks are not African in their ethnic origin or such, the problem is still there in a double standard you seem to think doesn't exist. I'm not saying I'm an expert, especially in regards to pop culture with regards to white people that wear what are at least associated with blackness, even if they aren't exclusively so (since it's a hairstyle that, to my knowledge, doesn't have cultural significance)

Many people do change and for those who don’t, their children will change. We see this in how attitudes towards blacks, women, gays, etc. have changed from one generation to the next.

And the problem is still this assumption that the change is always that significant when we still definitely have generations that perpetuate these issues, not even intentionally, but because it's tradition.

Are you just going to continue and deny that there are societal and systemic aspects that aren't a conscious thing we're necessarily aware of or choose to perpetuate, but exist because of memesis in culture?

 

[muichimotsu]

Okay; it was not my intention to speak on behalf of every single person on earth. Some people might have hair too thin to grow them, my point was that people of all races can grow dreadlocks.
This guy does an excellent job of making my point. He also points out the specific areas of Africa where dreadlocks is a part of their culture

I don't think any of us were claiming it was impossible, but the issue is the regard towards white people versus black people in terms of appropriateness along with the standards of beauty thing I brought up before with the "black is beautiful" movement. Do you really think it's suddenly changed that drastically over a mere 50 years, which in some understandings, is a generation?

 

[Ken-1122]

Even if we grant that dreadlocks are not African in their ethnic origin or such, the problem is still there in a double standard you seem to think doesn't exist. I'm not saying I'm an expert, especially in regards to pop culture with regards to white people that wear what are at least associated with blackness, even if they aren't exclusively so (since it's a hairstyle that, to my knowledge, doesn't have cultural significance)

The double standard is pretty much the opposite of how you described it.

Are you just going to continue and deny that there are societal and systemic aspects that aren't a conscious thing we're necessarily aware of or choose to perpetuate, but exist because of memesis in culture?

I'm saying whatever societal and systemic aspects that might exist goes both ways; not one way as you are suggesting.

I don't think any of us were claiming it was impossible, but the issue is the regard towards white people versus black people in terms of appropriateness along with the standards of beauty thing I brought up before with the "black is beautiful" movement. Do you really think it's suddenly changed that drastically over a mere 50 years, which in some understandings, is a generation?

Yes! A lot has changed in this country over the past 50 years.

 

[muichimotsu]

The double standard is pretty much the opposite of how you described it.

You made a positive claim, by all means back it up, I'm not claiming I'm an expert or absolutely certain, but I'm also not going to just dismiss a black person's opinion that I've heard in regards to this as a concern of double standard on dreadlocks or other things like it, box braids, used by non black people in a context that divests it of, to an extent, its racial context

I'm saying whatever societal and systemic aspects that might exist goes both ways; not one way as you are suggesting.

I never claimed it was just one way, you're putting words in my mouth. Systemic racism can manifest even in positive stereotypes, or is that just going over your head somehow?

Yes! A lot has changed in this country over the past 50 years.

It doesn't mean we should stop seeking to be better, either

 

[Ken-1122]

You made a positive claim, by all means back it up, I'm not claiming I'm an expert or absolutely certain, but I'm also not going to just dismiss a black person's opinion that I've heard in regards to this as a concern of double standard on dreadlocks or other things like it, box braids, used by non black people in a context that divests it of, to an extent, its racial context

I provided youtube videos of people making my point. What more do you want? And just because your black friend says this or that about black people doesn't mean they speak for all black people. Obviously they disagree with me, all I can tell you is my experience, and all they can do is tell you theirs.

I never claimed it was just one way, you're putting words in my mouth. Systemic racism can manifest even in positive stereotypes, or is that just going over your head somehow?

When I said it goes both ways, I meant it is directed against black people as well as white people; it all depends on where you look

It doesn't mean we should stop seeking to be better, either

I agree.

 

[muichimotsu]

I provided youtube videos of people making my point. What more do you want? And just because your black friend says this or that about black people doesn't mean they speak for all black people. Obviously they disagree with me, all I can tell you is my experience, and all they can do is tell you theirs.

Pretty sure I said black person, not black friend, I haven't talked to my black friends about this, mostly because I have so few anyway, but also because we don't interact that often.

If you are in the minority, what does that say about your perspective relative to others of various levels of education in the first place and not merely one group that would fit into some stereotype that are saying there is a problem and you're enabling it?

Your experience by your own admission cannot speak for all black people, we have to take a comprehensive approach, which means acknowledging that there is a distinct possibility you may be the exception to the rule, possibly by just acting more acceptable and not like the stereotype that still exists where black people who aren't "acceptable" to white people are referred to as the n word (or even white people, that's a use I wasn't aware of and that's in my home state of TN in the Memphis area, which has more black people)

When I said it goes both ways, I meant it is directed against black people as well as white people; it all depends on where you look

It's directed at white people in the sense of being over possessive of the hairstyle, but with black people, it's more the notion that somehow they themselves have to be regarded differently because of their physical features even relative to the same hairstyle, like with features that can have a different perception with white people having the same thing (usually artificially, like with more prominent lips). It's more the color blind idea that you don't see race, but that's easier said than done for people that aren't white who have a lived experience where they're not treated the same because they're not white

I agree.

Yet there is still an impasse as to what is considered good and bad progress as regards racial relations and equity (equality is a different situation, especially as regards representation, but distinct from normalization).

If people tended not to have the issues they still do with casting black people in what are often regarded as "white" roles, like the eventual Little Mermaid live action where, to my knowledge, Ariel is black, but Eric is still white, which confuses me slightly, same with Triton supposedly being a Spanish actor, then maybe things would be better versus the divisiveness that comes with white people still copping an attitude with things changing in a way they don't like (black people being in a majority white neighborhood, for another example)

 

[Ken-1122]

Pretty sure I said black person, not black friend,

Oh so you get this information about black people from some random black guy you really don’t even know, but you take his word for it? Trust me; he’s leading you astray. As a matter of fact, if he’s telling you black people wearing dreadlocks get more hostility in society than white people wearing dreadlocks, he’s likely pulling your chain; I’m surprised you haven’t figured that out by now. Trust me; he don’t even believe the bull he’s telling ya

I haven't talked to my black friends about this, mostly because I have so few anyway, but also because we don't interact that often.

Perhaps you should get some more black friends, and get their perspective on things from a person you know.

Yet there is still an impasse as to what is considered good and bad progress as regards racial relations and equity (equality is a different situation, especially as regards representation, but distinct from normalization).

If people tended not to have the issues they still do with casting black people in what are often regarded as "white" roles, like the eventual Little Mermaid live action where, to my knowledge, Ariel is black, but Eric is still white, which confuses me slightly, same with Triton supposedly being a Spanish actor, then maybe things would be better versus the divisiveness that comes with white people still copping an attitude with things changing in a way they don't like (black people being in a majority white neighborhood, for another example)

Perhaps that’s a reality in the South where you live, but in the West where I live it is not a problem.

 

[muichimotsu]

Oh so you get this information about black people from some random black guy you really don’t even know, but you take his word for it? Trust me; he’s leading you astray. As a matter of fact, if he’s telling you black people wearing dreadlocks get more hostility in society than white people wearing dreadlocks, he’s likely pulling your chain; I’m surprised you haven’t figured that out by now. Trust me; he don’t even believe the bull he’s telling ya

Oh, because you being black means you can't possibly be also pulling my chain by your own stereotyping of your own race? Come on, why am I to take what you say as more compelling merely because you're trying to be more "polite" and in turn deny racism exists in the systemic form because you don't appear to understand what the qualifier "systemic" means

Perhaps you should get some more black friends, and get their perspective on things from a person you know.

Yeah, not exactly easy in the South, so you'll forgive me if I maybe have tried, but honestly even with my 500~ FB friends (most of whom are acquaintances), there's probably only...2% black at most

Perhaps that’s a reality in the South where you live, but in the West where I live it is not a problem.

Where you live is a microcosm at best, same as where I live, where I couldn't say with certainty about how we would react as a neighborhood overall to black people, but even if it was "positive", it doesn't mean it is without any racial undertones at all in how the majority white neighborhood I live in has ideas about black people that are rooted in ignorance, usually because we barely interact with black people and certainly not regularly or in the sense of being equitable, because it's the South (not that there aren't people who likely share similar ideas in the Southwest or such of America, ideologies migrate)

 

[Aldebaran]

Oh, because you being black means you can't possibly be also pulling my chain by your own stereotyping of your own race? Come on, why am I to take what you say as more compelling merely because you're trying to be more "polite" and in turn deny racism exists in the systemic form because you don't appear to understand what the qualifier "systemic" means

Can't you even respect the views of a black person about black issues? What you're doing is actually a sign of White supremacy; talking down to black people and telling them how to see things that may or may not affect them? It's very demeaning.

 

[coffee4u]

Can't you even respect the views of a black person about black issues? What you're doing is actually a sign of White supremacy; talking down to black people and telling them how to see things that may or may not affect them? It's very demeaning.

I think the real point is, that each person has their own views and life experiences. No one person speaks for the entire group. Whether that group is based on ethnicity, religion, hobby or anything else.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yeah, not exactly easy in the South, so you'll forgive me if I maybe have tried, but honestly even with my 500~ FB friends (most of whom are acquaintances), there's probably only...2% black at most

Where you live is a microcosm at best, same as where I live, where I couldn't say with certainty about how we would react as a neighborhood overall to black people, but even if it was "positive", it doesn't mean it is without any racial undertones at all in how the majority white neighborhood I live in has ideas about black people that are rooted in ignorance, usually because we barely interact with black people and certainly not regularly or in the sense of being equitable, because it's the South (not that there aren't people who likely share similar ideas in the Southwest or such of America, ideologies migrate)

With that said, I can definitely understand why you have the views about white people that you have.

 

[muichimotsu]

With that said, I can definitely understand why you have the views about white people that you have.

Not all white people, I'm not remotely claiming that, I'm saying that many white people are enabling these issues by not engaging at all, which I've tried, even just in this conversation, since you are a black person and I'm trying to understand. That doesn't mean all white people will, some will prefer to have a simplistic stereotype and also convince themselves they're not racist (at least in the obvious sense)

 

[muichimotsu]

Can't you even respect the views of a black person about black issues? What you're doing is actually a sign of White supremacy; talking down to black people and telling them how to see things that may or may not affect them? It's very demeaning.

I'm not telling them how to see things, I'm pointing out they might be mistaken with the understanding I could be wrong as well and have been shown to be wrong in the conversation, which I'm fine with. Because being wrong and acknowledging it is a step towards seeking the right answer

 

[Junia]

I think when people refer to privilege they are talking generally about black people as a race. I doubt Obama ever has to struggle much in life with inferiority or poverty. Although he is more mixed race rather than black.

But black people who 're just ordinary working or lower middle class? Yes I think many of them have suffered and struggled to some degree due to their colour.

 

[Junia]

Not all white people, I'm not remotely claiming that, I'm saying that many white people are enabling these issues by not engaging at all, which I've tried, even just in this conversation, since you are a black person and I'm trying to understand. That doesn't mean all white people will, some will prefer to have a simplistic stereotype and also convince themselves they're not racist (at least in the obvious sense)

SAdly some whites are racist. some people are raci st. If we ourselves are not racist, then we are not part of the problem. I try to treat people as people, treat them as humans loved by God. I think most of us do our best to be kind although I expect we all have some prejudice inside us. The difference is we can notice if we are judging by colour or class and check ourselves when we do it.

 

[muichimotsu]

SAdly some whites are racist. some people are raci st. If we ourselves are not racist, then we are not part of the problem. I try to treat people as people, treat them as humans loved by God. I think most of us do our best to be kind although I expect we all have some prejudice inside us. The difference is we can notice if we are judging by colour or class and check ourselves when we do it.

We can enable a problem by being complacent and thinking it's not as bad as it is.
Our recognition of race is not racism, the determinant factor is discriminatory attitudes and such towards someone based purely on that trait of race versus their actions that we can judge more explicitly.

Racism in an individual sense is not the sole issue but how society reinforces racism, so that those who have those ideas don't have any shame about it and we don't progress as a society. Trying to be colorblind about race is not a solution, it's a bandaid on a gaping festering wound

 

[pescador]

I think when people refer to privilege they are talking generally about black people as a race. I doubt Obama ever has to struggle much in life with inferiority or poverty. Although he is more mixed race rather than black.

But black people who 're just ordinary working or lower middle class? Yes I think many of them have suffered and struggled to some degree due to their colour.

Once you read Obama's biography you will find that your supposition is way off base.

His father left soon after his birth, and the couple divorced two years later. In 1965, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, a University of Hawaii student from Indonesia. A year later, the family moved to Jakarta, Indonesia, where Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro Ng, was born in 1970. Several incidents in Indonesia left Dunham afraid for her son's safety and education so, at the age of 10, Obama was sent back to Hawaii to live with his maternal grandparents. His mother and half-sister later joined them.

As a child, Obama did not have a relationship with his father. When his son was still an infant, Obama Sr. relocated to Massachusetts to attend Harvard University and pursue a Ph.D. Obama's parents officially separated several months later and ultimately divorced in March 1964, when their son was two. Soon after, Obama Sr. returned to Kenya.

Obama struggled with the absence of his father during his childhood, who he saw only once more after his parents divorced when Obama Sr. visited Hawaii for a short time in 1971. "[My father] had left paradise, and nothing that my mother or grandparents told me could obviate that single, unassailable fact," he later reflected. "They couldn't describe what it might have been like had he stayed."

While living with his grandparents, Obama enrolled in the esteemed Punahou Academy. He excelled in basketball and graduated with academic honors in 1979. As one of only three Black students at the school, he became conscious of racism and what it meant to be African American.

Obama later described how he struggled to reconcile social perceptions of his multiracial heritage with his own sense of self: "I noticed that there was nobody like me in the Sears, Roebuck Christmas catalog. . .and that Santa was a white man," he wrote. "I went into the bathroom and stood in front of the mirror with all my senses and limbs seemingly intact, looking as I had always looked, and wondered if something was wrong with me."

Read more at biography.com

 

[muichimotsu]

I think when people refer to privilege they are talking generally about black people as a race. I doubt Obama ever has to struggle much in life with inferiority or poverty. Although he is more mixed race rather than black.

But black people who 're just ordinary working or lower middle class? Yes I think many of them have suffered and struggled to some degree due to their colour.

Obama is 1) not really black and 2) may not have struggled in part because of factors that can aid anyone regardless of their race.

The difficulty is in society's historical regard to black people as lesser, marginalizing them versus white people, who are expected to succeed more often than not. I live in the South, we have white people that fail, usually because of their own willful ignorance that white privilege only reinforces, but it doesn't mean that society isn't giving some kind of favored treatment to white people as a whole in contrast to black people

 

[RDKirk]

I think when people refer to privilege they are talking generally about black people as a race. I doubt Obama ever has to struggle much in life with inferiority or poverty. Although he is more mixed race rather than black.

Obama benefitted from being raised in Hawaii, which has a dramatically different racial dynamic from any other state. Race is very much recognized, but benignly so, for the most part. Hawaii residents are pleased to be able to recite numerous racial strains. Being of mixed race is a point of pride in Hawaii, and "brown" is the standard of beauty.

And, true, poverty was not a problem he suffered, either. I was mildly surprised when I first heard the private high school he'd attended...I'd tried to get my son into that school. But when I then learned that his grandfather had been a close friend of the most powerful long-term Democrat in the state...I understood.