FreeGrace2 said:
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OK, Jim. Where is the Scripture that SAYS election is to salvation?
Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
So, what words clearly indicate that "God hath chosen us "for salvation" in these 2 verses? I am not seeing any mention of salvation at all.
And please define specifically who the "us" refers to, since you colored and bolded it several times. Surely you must know.
There are no "random" people... that is just ANOTHER strawman
that you construct to save face. The people who are "chosen"
or "elected" are very SPECIFIC people God decides will be part
of "His Sheep" ( as we are "chosen us in Him" before the world)
I'm not interested in your opinions, no offense.
I am interested in what Paul meant by his use of "us". Paul never spoke of "sheep" so your comment is totally irrelevant and off the mark.
Paul defined
SPECIFICALLY who he meant by "us" in v.4 in v.19a - and his incomparably great power for
us who believe.
Very simple. Eph 1:4 is a statement about God having chosen or elected BELIEVERS "to be holy and blameless".
Election is to service, not salvation.
Since the SCRIPTURE (not me) says "us" and "we" are chosen
to be "in Him" before he foundation of the world
And here is where you (and most likely all other Calvinists) have gone way off the rails.
The verse DOESN'T say "to be 'in Him'". That's where you are wrong. The words "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase, that further defines who the "us" are.
So, Paul was telling us that "God has chosen US (believers) (who are) in Him".
As to the purpose of this election, rather than the parenthesis, you have to read beyond the "before the foundation of the world" to find it.
Here it is: For he chose us (believers) (who are) in him before the creation of the world
to be holy and blameless in his sight.
The red words are the purpose clause for WHAT God chose believers for.
By misreading the verse, and thus misunderstanding the purpose of God's election in this verse, you have totally messed up the verse. It says nothing of what you think it says.
and to be "Holy and without blame"
Oh no. No, you don't. You can just remove your "and". It doesn't exist in the verse.
The singular purpose of God's election of us (believers) is TO BE holy and blameless.
That's what He chose us (believers) to be.
Want more evidence? Sure.
Eph 5-
25Husbands, love your wives, just as
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish,
but holy and blameless.
These verses are about the "church", in the biblical sense. Meaning, that the body of Christ are only saved people. And God wants her (the church, saved people) to be holy and blameless.
More evidence? Sure.
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts
so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
and to be "predestinated... unto
the adoption of children... by Jesus Christ to Himself" ...
even unsaved Moslems and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists
and Agnostics and Humanists and Pagans can easily understand
the "us" and the "we" refers to those "chosen" to be part of
"His Sheep"...
If you want to align yourself with these people, that's your problem. But anyone who understands English can see easily that "sheep" are not found anywhere in Eph.
Here's the real problem that you have.
You seem to think the Bible speaks of "5 kingdoms of heaven". Yet, the ONLY document on the entire internet is yours.
That means there are NO scholars who agree with you. Or there would be other sites and documents about them. You are quite alone in your opinions.
Secondly, even though you admit that in eternity, there are only 2 places of existence, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, you have artificially created a third, and very weird category, the "unsaved Christian", which is an oxymoron.
According to the Bible Christians are saved people. Everyone else is unsaved. Period.