Canons of Dort No-Straw-Man Challenge

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5thKingdom

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The thread is about the reformed view. The death of the unborn has been discussed, and there are various understandings. I’m not ready to come down one way or the other.


I understand the thread is on the Cannons.
However, I was only offering the fact that the authority
on Truth is NOT the Cannons (or the teachings or dogma of men)
but the harmony of Scripture. This fact may not "fit" perfectly
into the OP but it is an important and relevant fact which
we are commanded to respect... in fact, these verses
(both OT and NT) are related to the end-times
(which we are in).


Isa 2:22
Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils:
for wherein is he to be accounted of?


Mat 24:23
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you
before.


2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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The thread is about the reformed view.


Besides, the "Reformed view" is supposed to represent
the "Biblical view" so it is always relevant to compare
the Cannons to Scripture... essentially that is what you
asked in the OP, whether the Cannons were Biblical.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Does this mean that all who follow Christ, listen to Him and want to please the Father are the elect? In other words, ones actions and beliefs are proof of election?


Yes, we are known by our "fruit" which includes both our
actions and our doctrines.

However, you assume too much. The church contains both
saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" that LOOK very much like
the "wheat"... so seeing someone who SEEMS to be following
Christ does not necessarily mean they are saved "wheat"

See Matthew 7:21-23 and Luke 13:23-30 and Matthew 25:1-13

Jim
 
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FreeGrace2

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No, your whole argument is a straw man.
Oh, right. My eye I am. YOU admitted that "election is TO salvation", and now you don't want to own it.

If what you admitted is true, then salvation is BY election. And you can't prove otherwise.

So, tell me what this so-called straw man is that I've been arguing. In fact, you are just in denial in a very big way.

You are taking what is said in article 15 and saying that it means something else. You can’t see that, so we are done.
Sure, you can quit any time, esp when you know you are in a corner. This isn't about article 15, since you have finally admitted that "election is TO salvation".

Now, if you want to refute article 15, then okay. But it’s not a refutation to say that it’s saying something it’s not saying.
Aren't you paying attention? When you admitted that "election is TO salvation", you just proved my claim that Calvinist election makes faith a mere by product or side effect of election.

And you won't address THAT point.

But, being in denial, you don't even see it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I would argue that we are elected for salvation....
And what verse or verses say that?

BUT we could argue we are SAVED when we are "chosen" or "elected"
because God cannot fail to accomplish His purpose.
Well then, you have just admitted that we are saved by election. Thanks for the honesty, but you cannot prove your claim from Scripture.

This is what you said to another poster:
"When we compare Scripture to Scripture (as the ONLY measure
of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED passages)"

But, you CANNOT support your claims from Scripture. Don't you think that's a bit disingenuous?

And, of course, you cannot name (or show any Scripture noting)
someone who was saved... but NOT "chosen" or "elected" by God.
Jim
Your question is quite faulty. Eph 1:4 proves that ALL believers are chosen.

However, I CAN name a person who was elected but NOT saved. Judas.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Also, Christ's death is described as being effective for salvation. No verses are provided that say that Christ's death saves..
That is just hilarious.
I'm glad that you are laughing at the "precious" Canons of Dort. I was pointing out what I read in there.

Pretending that "effective for salvation" is different than "saves".
I could not even make that up if I tried.
Well, tell that to Dort. I thought it was pretty funny myself.

He served up quite a big word salad, for sure.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The question is never what "the Reformed camp" believes, it is always and only what the Bible teaches.
OK, so WHY doesn't the Canons have ANY Scripture that supports their claims?

Does the Bible teach unborn babies are saved? Does it teach they are all
unsaved? Or does it not offer a teaching on this subject?
The Bible clearly indicates that David was convinced that he would join His week old son by Bathsheba some day. 2 Sam 12:23.

If the Bible is silent on a subject... the saints should respect
that silence and not speculate one way or the other.
Jim
I'll take this one step further. If Calvinism can't provide clear verses that say what they claim, they should remain silent.
 
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FreeGrace2

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jacks said:
I didn't read the all of the Canons of Dort, but it was very interesting. I do have what are hope are two quick and easy to answer questions.
  1. Do we know or is it possible to know if you are one of the Elect?
Yes, the Bible says there are several ways that we can KNOW
when we are "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit (saved/born again)
It seems you have completely missed the question. The question was about being "one of the elect". And your answer speaks to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Are you unaware that Judas was chosen/elected? John 6:70,71 says he was. Was he ever indwelt with the Spirit?

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit
of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.
This verse says nothing about election.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I understand the thread is on the Cannons.
However, I was only offering the fact that the authority
on Truth is NOT the Cannons (or the teachings or dogma of men)
but the harmony of Scripture.
What is real clear is that the Canons don't have Scripture that supports its claims.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Besides, the "Reformed view" is supposed to represent
the "Biblical view" so it is always relevant to compare
the Cannons to Scripture... essentially that is what you
asked in the OP, whether the Cannons were Biblical.

Jim
And I proved otherwise. The Canons have NO verses that support their claims.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, we are known by our "fruit" which includes both our actions and our doctrines.
Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit.

The Bible NEVER says that about believers. In fact, the Bible is full of commands and exhortations for believers to NOT BE like the Gentiles (Eph 4:17), and to stop sinning.
 
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Hammster

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Aren't you paying attention? When you admitted that "election is TO salvation", you just proved my claim that Calvinist election makes faith a mere by product or side effect of election.
No. You just aren’t grasping what I’m saying.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No. You just aren’t grasping what I’m saying.
This is what I said:
"When you admitted that "election is TO salvation", you just proved my claim that Calvinist election makes faith a mere by product or side effect of election."

So, it appears that you aren't grasping what I'm saying.

What you admitted MEANS that salvation is by election. No way around it, even with all the word salads in the world.

The canons have no Scripture that backs up their claims. Neither do you.

Bottom line.
 
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5thKingdom

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Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit. The Bible NEVER says that about believers.


Once again you open your mouth and demonstrate for all to see
that you don't understand Scripture. You expose you do not have
"ears to hear". You don't really KNOW what the Bible teaches,
you only know what you WANT the Bible to teach. It takes
less than 1 minute to prove this:


Mat 13:8-9
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit,
some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Mat 7:17-19
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.


Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good;
or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:
for the tree is known by his fruit.


John15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me,
and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
for without me ye can do nothing.


John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit;
so shall ye be my disciples


John15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,
and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask
of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit. The Bible NEVER says that about believers.


Now that you have embarrassed yourself (again) with your
arrogant behavior ("fruit") while NOT knowing what the Bible
teaches ("fruit") you may want to do some research on the
subject before exposing your lack of Biblical understanding.
If you were only to use a concordance to look-up every time
the Scriptures use the word "fruit" you would see there are
about 50 verses in which "fruit" applies to the believers...
in direct contradiction to your (false) doctrine.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Here's another example of failing to understand Scripture. In Matt 7, it is the false teachers who are known by their fruit.


Since you apparently do not understand the First Principle of
Bible study... I will help you out.

The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is harmony
of ALL RELATED Scriptures.

You can never ASSUME you have found Biblical Truth until your
"theory" harmonizes with ALL SCRIPTURE. If even one passage
contradicts your "theory" then you can know absolutely that
your "theory" is not Biblical, and therefore, not correct.

Most heresies harmonize with one or two Scriptures...
otherwise they would immediately be recognized as heresy.
All GOOD LIES must contain some truth.

So when you PRETEND that one verse (in Matthew 7) establishes
the Biblical Truth on a subject... you only embarrass yourself.

This is Christian Theology 101
Why is it "news" to you?

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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And I proved otherwise.


There is a HUGE difference between what you THINK you proved...
and what you actually proved.

As shown a few posts earlier.
You THINK you proved the believers do not produce "fruit"
And yet there are almost 50 verses that contradict your "proof"

You must NEVER make the mistake of thinking Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what you understand. Clearly, it is not.

And your "proof" is often a joke, which contradicts TONS
of Scriptures... and some very basic and essential elements
of the True Gospel.

Jim
 
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bling

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When we compare Scripture to Scripture (as the ONLY measure
of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED passages) we find
the "death" that results from sin is NOT a physical death but
the "Second Death" which no saint is subject to.


Jim
We can certainly look at all related passages, but I was trying to at least just start with Romans, so in Romans is Paul referring to the second death when He talks about all dying?

Ro. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

When God told Adam he would die it he ate the fruit was that “death” the second death?

All have sinned and death came to that same “all”, so do all experience the second death?

Did the second death reign from Adam to Moses so even Abel experienced the second death?

“Ro. 5: 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”
So did Jesus experience the second death?

“Ro. 5: 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die.” So according to Paul some would be willing to experience the second death for a good person?

“Ro. 6: 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.” Do we experience the second death also?
 
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5thKingdom

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jacks said:
It seems you have completely missed the question. The question was about being "one of the elect". And your answer speaks to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


No, it seems you do not THINK deeply enough.
The "elect" are actually saved (in time) when they are "indwelt"
or "born again" or regenerated. So I answered the question,
even if that answer was above your head/understanding.


Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit
of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.


Are you unaware that Judas was chosen/elected? John 6:70,71 says he was. Was he ever indwelt with the Spirit?


No, John 6:70-71 does NOT say Judas was "elect".
That is just your imagination producing a false "interpretation".


Jesus said Judas was "chosen" to be part of the twelve...
so that Scripture could be fulfilled by his betrayal. Do you
REALLY pretend Jesus did not know Judas was of the Devil
when He was chosen (to fulfill OT Scripture with his betrayal)?
That is just hilarious.


Joh 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve,
and one of you is a devil?


John_17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


You ASSUME more than Scripture says AND (more importantly)
you contradict DOZENS of passages in order to pretend that
John 6:70-71 "proves" your theory. You make this mistake
often. Remember, your "theory" must harmonize with
ALL RELATED Scriptures before you can even pretend
to have found Biblical Truth.


Remember, most heresy can find one or two passages that
SEEM to support it - as any good lie needs some truth. But
the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is whether your "theories"
harmonize with ALL RELATED Scriptures. Yours does not,
so we know absolutely it is not Biblical, and therefore, wrong.


Jim
 
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bling

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Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, [saved]
and another unto dishonour? [unsaved]


Rom 9:22-24
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [non elect] And that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, [elect] which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Clearly, your argument is NOT with the Cannons of Dort
but with the Word of God.


Jim
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about on one pot being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?


Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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