Changing your mind about prophecy

[Timtofly]

The pre-trib rapture is wishful thinking; it is the hope that they will not need to suffer for their faith.

This is not true at all. Pre-trib Christians have been martyred. That is pure brainwashing indoctrination. Take a phrase that is plausible but untrue and convince a person they are wrong. Then tell them the devil gave them that thought to seal the deal. I watched the video. These tactics are used by Satan to question God's Word and the church is rapidly becoming apostate.

Some of the video was reverse psychology. Confirmation bias and wishful thinking are psychological constructs. Even if true can be used to manipulate one's thinking. They are doubled edged swords.

 

[Timtofly]

No, the narrator says that we will need to suffer for our faith. That's just the reality; we can't wish it away with religious dogma.

No, he put up images of a cross, and equated the post trib belief with Jesus praying in the garden.

 

[Timtofly]

Your entire post is wack. The first being last and the last first is talking about being a servant and has nothing to do with a rapture. I will leave it at that because I really don’t have time to address your mess.

Matthew 19:28-30

28 Yeshua said to them, “Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra’el.
29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times more, and he will obtain eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

 

[Devin Hammond]

Matthew 19:28-30

28 Yeshua said to them, “Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra’el.
29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times more, and he will obtain eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Exactly, he’s talking about being a servant in the kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

I think this thread is mistitled. It should have something about not believing in a pre-trib rapture.

It seems appropriate for discussing a video that is trying to change people's minds.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly, he’s talking about being a servant in the kingdom.

The Kingdom on earth. What about Paradise?

 

[JulieB67]

I grew up believing the pre-trib theory. It sounded quite wonderful. My church believed it. My family believed it and I don't remember ever hearing any arguments to the contrary which would suggest there was any controversy.

Yes, this was me as well for a long time.

 

[Richard T]

All I will say is that one's end times beliefs do not keep anyone that I know from walking in the spirit and fulfilling God's will. So pre-trib believers are not at a disadvantage. The Christians that are at a disadvantage are those walking in the flesh.

 

[jgr]

This is not true at all. Pre-trib Christians have been martyred. That is pure brainwashing indoctrination. Take a phrase that is plausible but untrue and convince a person they are wrong. Then tell them the devil gave them that thought to seal the deal. I watched the video. These tactics are used by Satan to question God's Word and the church is rapidly becoming apostate.

Some of the video was reverse psychology. Confirmation bias and wishful thinking are psychological constructs. Even if true can be used to manipulate one's thinking. They are doubled edged swords.

Since pretrib was virtually unknown in the historical true Church before the 19th century, it is evident as to where apostasy has arisen.

It is found in the modernism of dispensational futurism.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I believe from scripture when presented right or designed for each case you could walk away pre trib, mid trib ( pre wrath) or post. Just depending how it's studied or presented.

The video gave no argument for post trib that could be countered with pre trib scriptures. In fact it could best be described as a pre wrath rapture plea. Simply saying pre trib is wrong and get ready to go through post isn't an argument at all. He needs to go back and attach some scriptures and explain how 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:30 are the same event given the differences in the text, for instance. In fact anyone trying to make a claim for Matthew 24 as pre trib is already off base, it's not pre trib. And the event there certainly doesn't play out the same as in 1 Thess 4 which is one pre trib argument.

Please explain what you mean here. What are these differences that you're talking about? Each passage doesn't have all the same details, but there isn't anything in one of the passages that contradicts something in the other.

Same with Luke 17. And if you want to get into Revelation then he should explain how there seems to be a judgement on the churches in Rev 2 and 3, then immediately in Rev 4 you find the church elders in heaven. Note that the Great Tribulation not to be confused with every day tribulation has not begun yet in Rev 4. That is another pre trib argument.

The book of Revelation is not just one long chronological book. It is a huge mistake to think so. Clearly, the events of Revelation 12 do not follow the events at the end of Revelation 11 chronologically. So, why do you assume that what is described in Revelation 4 follows what is described in Rev 2 and 3 chronologically?

Everyone though can agree that we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thessalonians 5:9. And we know wrath comes at the end of the great tribulation. So either way we are gone for the pouring out of Gods wrath.

The only wrath that would require us to be taken off the earth is God's final global wrath as described in 2 Peter 3:10-13 which will come down on the day Christ returns. There will be no need to be taken off the earth before the day He returns. And 1 Thess 4:13-18 makes it clear that we will be caught up to Christ on the day He returns.

 

[rectitude]

Hello John. Pleased I found this thread to read first. Thanks for the video.

Only one Day of the Lord I'm aware of, and it sees the world in flames.
2 Esdras says woe to those not left behind.

I pray to be alive to see His coming, there can be no greater glory in the physical, nor spiritual.
Biased, but I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
It can be a very difficult conversation for some followers, but scripture is there.

The email noted in the video .. avidmoderator1@gmail.com ..
found under the about tab on 'Beacon of Hope' yt channel.
Interesting series; last one is a drop it all and follow Jesus video.

 

[Dave L]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

 

[mikeforjesus]

Will there be a rapture atleast to the wilderness what else is meant by 2 will be in one bed one will be taken and the other left ? It follows by saying where the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. Some take that to mean some will be left behind to be slain where eagles will eat them. Could it mean wherever there is true Christians or Christians who worship the crucified Lord and will seek to commune with Him spiritually to be able to look upon spiritually the Son body that was dead will be saved they will be gathered together as Jesus said whoever sees the Son and believes in Him has everlasting life ? I believe the group end time survivors that posted that video does believe some will be protected to go to wilderness if they have truly been following Christ

 

[BABerean2]

The history of the doctrine is found in the links below.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

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Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[eleos1954]

In all fairness, the Messiah was said to only come once in the OT, but he is coming twice from a NT teaching. Could it be three times?

I dunno. What I do know is, there will be a great round up and execution of those not taking the mark.

well ... no ... refers to it in the OT

Jeremiah 5:18

Jeremiah 4:27
For this is what the LORD says: "The whole land will be desolate, but I will not finish its destruction.

He don't finish it the first time .... He will return to finish it (complete destruction of everything).

When He returns the 1st resurrection (of the saved) happens ... they are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years and then the 2nd resurrection happens (all the lost) ... He returns and then destroys all.

Revelation 20

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Malachi 4:1
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

I started off Pre-Trib, and was Pre-Wrath for a short time, and then went back to believing in Pre-Trib again. I now believe that there are two events. I believe there is:

#1. A possible Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15), and
#2. A definite Mid Trib gathering up by angels (Olivet Discourse).​

Verses on the Second Coming of Jesus do not match up with the Pre-Trib Rapture. The saints come down from out of Heaven in following Jesus into battle according to Revelation. The verses on the “taking up” (or Rapture) as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, we see that this is a gathering up to meet Jesus in the air (and this is not an event of coming down from Heaven).

Why do I believe there are two events?

Pre-Trib Rapture (the Call to the Wedding):

Matthew 25:10

“And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”​

The Mid-Trib Gathering (A Call After the Return From The Wedding):

Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."​

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."​

What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"​

• Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."​

• Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."​

• Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"​

• Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."​

• Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."​

 

[eleos1954]

Hi James, thanks for your response. I think there is often a lot of confusion about the difference between tribulation and wrath, so that people get the idea they are interchangeable or happen at the same time. I don't know if that's what you mean, but I really liked a concept illustrated in the video where the author says that suffering for our faith is just a part of what it means to stand up for righteousness.

The Great Tribulation is not a punishment in the same way that the wrath will be; a time of great discipline, yes, and maybe it could even bee seen, in some way, as a punishment, in the sense of correction, but tribulation is not wrath.

The video summed it up nicely toward the end; do we really have something worth dying for?

All go through the Great Tribulation and it happens just before Jesus returns ... it will ... however be cut short. It will be a difficult time.

Matthew 24:32

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Since pretrib was virtually unknown in the historical true Church before the 19th century, it is evident as to where apostasy has arisen.

It is found in the modernism of dispensational futurism.

could pre trib be the fulfillment of

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Rachel20]

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

I watched, but where were the arguments for post-trib? He just makes an assertion about the motives of pre-tribbers then spends the entire time attacking those motives. An obvious strawman.

 

[Dave G.]

I watched, but where were the arguments for post-trib? He just makes an assertion about the motives of pre-tribbers then spends the entire time attacking those motives. An obvious strawman.

Exactly. The video is basically useless as a source of argument, it just fulfills the sweet spot in post trib believers but it's not a good vid to use as an argument for post trib or against pre. IMO. I already said my piece on this.