Changing your mind about prophecy

WonbyOneanddone

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Sorry, but would you mind posting the OT prophecy which describes his second coming?
No, no, I was talking about the NT prophesies about the coming of Jesus a second time. There is no reference to a second coming in the OT, which is my point.
 
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Devin Hammond

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There are, but in those prophesies do they say fulfillment on his first coming or second? No.

In fact, many Jews reject Jesus because he did not fulfill all the Messianic prophesies.

Second Coming

SECOND COMING, the future return of Christ to the earth. A prominent doctrine of Christology, the predicted Second Advent of Christ is implied in hundreds of OT prophecies of future judgment on the world and a coming kingdom of righteousness on earth and is explicitly detailed in major NT passages. The last book of the Bible, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, refers specifically to His Second Coming itself (ch. 19), and the millennium and future state which follows (20-22).

1. General OT references. The OT presents a mingled prophecy of the first and second advents of Christ (cf. 1 Pet 1:10-12), often combining both comings in the same context (Isa 61:1-3; Luke 4:17-20). The first reference to the Second Coming is found in Deuteronomy 30:3 in the KJV rendering where it is predicted, “Then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.” The RSV obscures this prophecy by paraphrasing the expression “will return” by the tr. “will restore your fortunes.” The “return” results in their regathering to their ancient land and their spiritual and physical restoration. This is typical of OT prophecies of the Second Advent. The OT seldom pictures the Second Coming per se, but often dwells upon the circumstances of the Second Coming, such as the preceding regathering of Israel to the land (Jer 30:3; Amos 9:14, 15), and the results of the Second Coming—the judgment of the nations (Isa 2:4), deliverance of Israel (Jer 31:28), and a kingdom of righteousness and peace on earth (Ps 72:7).

2. Second Coming in the Psalms. The Second Coming of Christ is linked with the moral struggle between God and His creatures. Psalm 2 for instance, after picturing the world’s rejection of the sovereignty of God, declares God’s purpose, “I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.” In the vv. which follow, the decree of God is stated concerning His purpose to place His Son over the nations, to subdue the nations “with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9). On the basis of God’s intention to make His Son the King of the earth, the exhortation to earthly kings is “serve the Lord with fear, with trembling kiss his feet” (2:11). The conclusion is reached “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (2:12). This psalm is typical of the OT passages relating to the Second Coming. The event itself is assumed, but the results are detailed.

Psalm 24 is another great passage dealing with Christ’s coming as “the King of glory.” The gates of Jerusalem are exhorted to open to this King when He comes. His rule on the earth is based on the promise of Psalm 24:1, “The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.”

Another complete presentation of the Second Coming of Christ and its result is found in Psalm 72, presented in the form of a prayer, but describing the certain results of Christ’s return. His dominion is described as “from sea to sea” (72:8). Kings and nations are described as serving Him (72:11). Psalm 72 ends with the prayer, “May his glory fill the whole earth!” Although in the form of an inspired prayer, it clearly anticipates fulfillment.

Other psalms are similar in character such as Psalm 96 which declares, “The Lord reigns!” (vs. 10), and states “For he comes, for he comes to judge the earth” (vs. 13). The present position of Christ seated at the right hand of the Father in Psalm 110:1, 2 is considered temporary, for the day will come when “the Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter” and “will execute judgment among the nations” (110:2, 6).

3. Second Coming in the Prophets. The major prophets take up the same theme of the coming of the Lord to reign. A familiar text is Isaiah 9:6, 7where it declares, “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom” (vs. 7). The rule of the Messiah on earth is described in Isaiah 11 as one of complete righteousness and justice, of tranquility in nature, with universal knowledge of the Lord. Isaiah prays for the coming of the Lord (Isa 64:1), “O that thou wouldest rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at thy presence.” Isaiah’s great prophecy concludes in chs. 65; 66with a description of the reign of Christ on earth and the judgments which relate to it.

Jeremiah speaks of the results of the Lord’s coming when the Son of David “shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land” (Jer 23:5). The judgments and tribulation which precede the Second Coming are followed by the deliverance of Israel according to Jeremiah 30; 31, and many other prophecies in Jeremiah deal with the ultimate triumph of God during the reign of Christ. The presentation of the right to rule over the earth following His Second Coming is described in Daniel 7:13, 14, where the Son of man is given dominion over the entire earth and an everlasting kingdom.

One of the most specific references to the Second Coming in the OT is in Zechariah 14:3-5. The Lord is described as fighting in defense of Israel, and the statement is made, “On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.” The revelation goes on to picture that “the Lordwill become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one” (Zech 14:9).
 
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Dave G.

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I believe from scripture when presented right or designed for each case you could walk away pre trib, mid trib ( pre wrath) or post. Just depending how it's studied or presented.

The video gave no argument for post trib that could be countered with pre trib scriptures. In fact it could best be described as a pre wrath rapture plea. Simply saying pre trib is wrong and get ready to go through post isn't an argument at all. He needs to go back and attach some scriptures and explain how 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:30 are the same event given the differences in the text, for instance. In fact anyone trying to make a claim for Matthew 24 as pre trib is already off base, it's not pre trib. And the event there certainly doesn't play out the same as in 1 Thess 4 which is one pre trib argument. Same with Luke 17. And if you want to get into Revelation then he should explain how there seems to be a judgement on the churches in Rev 2 and 3, then immediately in Rev 4 you find the church elders in heaven. Note that the Great Tribulation not to be confused with every day tribulation has not begun yet in Rev 4. That is another pre trib argument. If you're going to counter pre trib these things have to be countered in detail, not just say oh that's the same event, the differences is just because of writing style.

Everyone though can agree that we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thessalonians 5:9. And we know wrath comes at the end of the great tribulation. So either way we are gone for the pouring out of Gods wrath. But if words mean anything in scripture, they gotta do better than the presentation in the video in terms of hard facts. Just my opinion. I know some hard line pre trib pastors that would tear that video apart using scripture. Just sayin.
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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Second Coming

SECOND COMING, the future return of Christ to the earth. A prominent doctrine of Christology, the predicted Second Advent of Christ is implied in hundreds of OT prophecies of future judgment on the world and a coming kingdom of righteousness on earth and is explicitly detailed in major NT passages. The last book of the Bible, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, refers specifically to His Second Coming itself (ch. 19), and the millennium and future state which follows (20-22).

1. General OT references. The OT presents a mingled prophecy of the first and second advents of Christ (cf. 1 Pet 1:10-12), often combining both comings in the same context (Isa 61:1-3; Luke 4:17-20). The first reference to the Second Coming is found in Deuteronomy 30:3 in the KJV rendering where it is predicted, “Then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.” The RSV obscures this prophecy by paraphrasing the expression “will return” by the tr. “will restore your fortunes.” The “return” results in their regathering to their ancient land and their spiritual and physical restoration. This is typical of OT prophecies of the Second Advent. The OT seldom pictures the Second Coming per se, but often dwells upon the circumstances of the Second Coming, such as the preceding regathering of Israel to the land (Jer 30:3; Amos 9:14, 15), and the results of the Second Coming—the judgment of the nations (Isa 2:4), deliverance of Israel (Jer 31:28), and a kingdom of righteousness and peace on earth (Ps 72:7).

2. Second Coming in the Psalms. The Second Coming of Christ is linked with the moral struggle between God and His creatures. Psalm 2 for instance, after picturing the world’s rejection of the sovereignty of God, declares God’s purpose, “I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.” In the vv. which follow, the decree of God is stated concerning His purpose to place His Son over the nations, to subdue the nations “with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9). On the basis of God’s intention to make His Son the King of the earth, the exhortation to earthly kings is “serve the Lord with fear, with trembling kiss his feet” (2:11). The conclusion is reached “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (2:12). This psalm is typical of the OT passages relating to the Second Coming. The event itself is assumed, but the results are detailed.

Psalm 24 is another great passage dealing with Christ’s coming as “the King of glory.” The gates of Jerusalem are exhorted to open to this King when He comes. His rule on the earth is based on the promise of Psalm 24:1, “The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.”

Another complete presentation of the Second Coming of Christ and its result is found in Psalm 72, presented in the form of a prayer, but describing the certain results of Christ’s return. His dominion is described as “from sea to sea” (72:8). Kings and nations are described as serving Him (72:11). Psalm 72 ends with the prayer, “May his glory fill the whole earth!” Although in the form of an inspired prayer, it clearly anticipates fulfillment.

Other psalms are similar in character such as Psalm 96 which declares, “The Lord reigns!” (vs. 10), and states “For he comes, for he comes to judge the earth” (vs. 13). The present position of Christ seated at the right hand of the Father in Psalm 110:1, 2 is considered temporary, for the day will come when “the Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter” and “will execute judgment among the nations” (110:2, 6).

3. Second Coming in the Prophets. The major prophets take up the same theme of the coming of the Lord to reign. A familiar text is Isaiah 9:6, 7where it declares, “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom” (vs. 7). The rule of the Messiah on earth is described in Isaiah 11 as one of complete righteousness and justice, of tranquility in nature, with universal knowledge of the Lord. Isaiah prays for the coming of the Lord (Isa 64:1), “O that thou wouldest rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at thy presence.” Isaiah’s great prophecy concludes in chs. 65; 66with a description of the reign of Christ on earth and the judgments which relate to it.

Jeremiah speaks of the results of the Lord’s coming when the Son of David “shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land” (Jer 23:5). The judgments and tribulation which precede the Second Coming are followed by the deliverance of Israel according to Jeremiah 30; 31, and many other prophecies in Jeremiah deal with the ultimate triumph of God during the reign of Christ. The presentation of the right to rule over the earth following His Second Coming is described in Daniel 7:13, 14, where the Son of man is given dominion over the entire earth and an everlasting kingdom.

One of the most specific references to the Second Coming in the OT is in Zechariah 14:3-5. The Lord is described as fighting in defense of Israel, and the statement is made, “On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.” The revelation goes on to picture that “the Lordwill become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one” (Zech 14:9).
I think we are talking past each other.

You are not understanding my point.
 
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Devin Hammond

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I think we are talking past each other.

You are not understanding my point.

Explain yourself then. You said that it’s plausible that Jesus comes three times because the OT doesn’t mention the second coming. I was showing that indeed the OT does prophesy concerning the second coming.
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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Explain yourself then. You said that it’s plausible that Jesus comes three times because the OT doesn’t mention the second coming. I was showing that indeed the OT does prophesy concerning the second coming.
Once again, I agree that the OT talks about the Second Coming, but it does not specify the second coming. When reading those prophesies there is no mention of the second coming specifically, it just says the Messiah will do those things.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think. The Typology I believe is in the last half of the presentation. I shared this on Facebook 4 years back because I thought the info on the typology was educational as far as general Bible knowledge and Eschatology is concerned.



I'm not a Pre-triber but this guy has made the best case for it that I have every heard, based on the Typology of the Jewish Wedding Feast.

 
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Devin Hammond

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Once again, I agree that the OT talks about the Second Coming, but it does not specify the second coming. When reading those prophesies there is no mention of the second coming specifically, it just says the Messiah will do those things.

It doesn’t seem like you are really making any point here. I have already shown that the second coming is in OT prophecy and you already said that you agree. So what is the point of this nonsense?
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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It doesn’t seem like you are really making any point here. I have already shown that the second coming is in OT prophecy and you already said that you agree. So what is the point of this nonsense?
When reading the account from before the life of Christ you would never have known it was speaking about the Second Coming.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Would you mind elaborating on how this relates?

It probably doesn't relate if you want a very narrow focus of only being just about your video. It is worth while if you are interested in the general topic of Pre-trib, I am mostly against that position but the speaker is the one person who has made me reconsider it's merits and worth.
 
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Blade

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I'm not a Pre-triber but this guy has made the best case for it that I have every heard, based on the Typology of the Jewish Wedding Feast.

Well praise GOD Pavel maybe you should be! lol just playing.

to the Op.. I don't know this person that made that video. Its just another believer (I think) and is sharing their personal view. Enoch as John quoted prophesied "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones," that was OT. I think we can trust Enoch word. He walked so close to God he was "caught up". Seems he escaped everything.

Something has all power over the enemy and is keeping him at bay. That will be taken out of the way. And what or who that is.. guess what? None of us get say. We can say NO pre-trib or no mid-trip, no post-trib. We never once get asked what do you want to happen from God. I can't find pre mid post verses in the word. I can see pre mid and post if "what that really means, God was really saying" added to those verses.

So since I was not promised tomorrow. I have faith NOW! I am ready now. I am always looking up.. always knowing NOW is when Christ will come to get me to receive me unto Him self so where (heaven) He is.. is where I will be. WHEN? I don't care. I am ready NOW! If you cannot live for Christ now.. you never will for whats coming.

Satan has is being held back. At some point he will be out in the open doing lying wonders. Things no one has seen since Christ left. And how will your faith be IF your here? You will see things only a GOD we've been told can do. And you won't believe why? Because of what a BOOK says?

This is about Israel. Gods wrath is not for the righteous. And as long as I am here.. there will be NO wrath where I stand. For as long as I am here.. He can do nothing. I have to taken....my belief. Just live for Him NOW! Be ready NOW! You will never miss Him
 
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John Helpher

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It is worth while if you are interested in the general topic of Pre-trib

I've heard a lot of arguments for it. Probably the only good thing about the pre-trib position is the idea that you should be prepared to meet Jesus at any time, although even then, most of its supporters do not practice the teachings of Jesus. The pre-trib rapture is wishful thinking; it is the hope that they will not need to suffer for their faith.

I understand that no one wants to suffer, and yet standing up against greed and fear will almost always result in suffering. I'm not particularly interested in videos which promote wishful thinking. That's not a slight against you, but rather the concept. If you feel there is a particularly interesting part of the video, maybe you could summarize it here?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I've heard a lot of arguments for it. Probably the only good thing about the pre-trib position is the idea that you should be prepared to meet Jesus at any time, although even then, most of its supporters do not practice the teachings of Jesus. The pre-trib rapture is wishful thinking; it is the hope that they will not need to suffer for their faith.

I understand that no one wants to suffer, and yet standing up against greed and fear will almost always result in suffering. I'm not particularly interested in videos which promote wishful thinking. That's not a slight against you, but rather the concept. If you feel there is a particularly interesting part of the video, maybe you could summarize it here?

Bye and large I've been against what I would call the Escapism of the Rapture people and largely seen it as a bad position. But the fact that Farag can make the case for his position based on the specifics of the Jewish traditions, and how they relate to the End Times and some other specifics makes a much better case than all the Hall Lindsey folks etc.

Besides that there kind of is a comforting aspect of the End times. While I don't like Rapture escapism there is plenty of time when life is not really going that well, nor is there anything on the immediate horizon etc. But Farag will bring up that Biblical theme that "this World is not really our home" etc. and that is a general point or truth that people need to consider, especially as things in general in the World are more likely to get worse than to get better.

As far as my position, its hard to have a coherent one. I'm probably more of a post tribber than a pre Triber, but many of the eschatological positions like Amillenial, Preterism etc. have good points they make. I guess I'm probably more post Trib than anything. I do however think a lot of people are trying to hard to make a system to explain everything etc. Especially the pre-tribbers even Farag, who believes that certain people are the Bridge of Christ, vs. the Guests, vs. the Grooms men. One of the biggest problems in theology etc. is when people take analogies too far, or read too much into things and that seems to be what some pre triber folks do even Farag.

But saying that, I like to read and watch different perspectives and sometimes you pick up on important things doing that etc.
 
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John Helpher

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WHEN? I don't care.

One practical problem with the pre-trib rapture is that it tends to give people a false sense of security in that they will not be expected to confront the various challenges described in the great tribulation.

For example, the mark of the Beast; I once heard a woman explain that she would be quite fine to take a microchip implant in her hand, without which she could not buy or sell. Such a thing could not be the mark of the Beast because she would have already been raptured. Do you see the problem with her logic?

In matthew 24 Jesus described a situaiton which sounds an awful lot like panic from those who believed he should have returned before the troubles started. He talks about tribulation, specifically stating that this tribulation is greater than the world has ever seen, and yet the people will claim he returned secretly and that he is out in the desert or in some secret place. Why would people make these claims if he had already raptured them up?

You might say these are disgruntled, religious fakes who though they should have been raptured but were left behind and in their bitterness their just making up stories about Jesus being in some secret place, but that does not fit the context of what Jesus is describing and it would not make sense in a world where millions have disappeared.

It makes more sense that these people believe jesus should have returned before the troubles started, but because of their religious pride, they stubbornly refuse to change their thinking, so instead they create a fiction that he returned secretly and all they need to do is look for him.
 
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John Helpher

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But the fact that Farag can make the case for his position based on the specifics of the Jewish traditions, and how they relate to the End Times and some other specifics makes a much better case than all the Hall Lindsey folks etc.

This is what I'd like you to elaborate on; what case does he make?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Douggg

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Does the title make you feel uncomfortable?
I would not say uncomfortable, because I am certain of my rapture view, the anytime rapture view. The rapture timing window is in the shaded area. I am just saying the thread title is misleading.


upload_2020-11-27_18-45-58.jpeg
 
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