Canons of Dort No-Straw-Man Challenge

[Hammster]

Thank you for the quick reply. It of course leads me to a couple of more questions.
For the first question You said "Yes", my question is how do you know?
With the second, then is there no hope of salvation for the reprobates?

You got lucky with my quick reply.

The first one, what’s the person's life look like? What is the fruit? We are told that those who are truly believers bear fruit. They follow Christ. They listen to Him. They won’t be perfect, but they will want to be pleasing to their Father. And they are disciplined when they aren’t. That’s just a quick thumbnail.

The second one is no, there’s no hope. I don’t want to sound flippant with that response. It’s a horrible thing. But the reprobate gets what is deserved. God isn’t owing to any of us salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are no verses that teach this because that’s not what’s being said. Salvation (which in this context you equate with justification) is by grace through faith. As is stated in Romans 4, we are made righteous (just) by faith. Nothing about election. And nothing in the Canons state otherwise.

Wrong. I quoted directly from the Canons. Maybe we see different words when looking at the same document.

From the "second main point"-

Article 8: The Saving Effectiveness of Christ’s Death
For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son’s costly death should work itself out in all the elect, in order that God might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words,it was God’s will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which he confirmed the new covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to him by the Father; that Christ should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit’s other saving gifts, he acquired for them by his death).

The red words definitely show that the Canons claim that "the elect" or "only those chosen" are saved.

There is a link, but you are not willing to admit it.

And because of God's election, faith is merely a by product or side effect.

 

[jacks]

You got lucky with my quick reply.

The first one, what’s the person's life look like? What is the fruit? We are told that those who are truly believers bear fruit. They follow Christ. They listen to Him. They won’t be perfect, but they will want to be pleasing to their Father. And they are disciplined when they aren’t. That’s just a quick thumbnail.

The second one is no, there’s no hope. I don’t want to sound flippant with that response. It’s a horrible thing. But the reprobate gets what is deserved. God isn’t owing to any of us salvation.

Hey "quick" is a relative term in the asynchronous forums. I think both your replies were quick and helpful. I guess just one more follow up question on the first one and then I will leave you in peace!

Does this mean that all who follow Christ, listen to Him and want to please the Father are the elect? In other words, ones actions and beliefs are proof of election?

 

[Hammster]

Wrong. I quoted directly from the Canons. Maybe we see different words when looking at the same document.

From the "second main point"-

Article 8: The Saving Effectiveness of Christ’s Death
For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son’s costly death should work itself out in all the elect, in order that God might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words,it was God’s will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which he confirmed the new covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to him by the Father; that Christ should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit’s other saving gifts, he acquired for them by his death).

The red words definitely show that the Canons claim that "the elect" or "only those chosen" are saved.

There is a link, but you are not willing to admit it.

And because of God's election, faith is merely a by product or side effect.

I can’t figure out how you are reading that. It’s says the saving effectiveness of Christ’s death works itself out in the elect. Faith is a product of Christ’s death, not election. Election is just who He died for.

 

[Hammster]

Hey "quick" is a relative term in the asynchronous forums. I think both your replies were quick and helpful. I guess just one more follow up question on the first one and then I will leave you in peace!

Does this mean that all who follow Christ, listen to Him and want to please the Father are the elect? In other words, ones actions and beliefs are proof of election?

I’ll say that this is correct. In short, if you are saved it’s evidence that you are elect.

 

[bling]

Most in the Reformed camp do not believe unborn babies suffer eternal damnation. So if you want to disagree with that Article, I’m okay with that.

So, do you disagree with the idea “God’s Right to Condemn All People”?

The doctrine would be consistent if every human being was hell bound at conception, but if you are making exceptions you need to explain the scripture supporting those exceptions.

What I see in scripture is people being condemned (hell bound) for their sins, they are accountable for and not Adam and Eve’s sin, so are we in agreement or do you have another criteria?

 

[Hammster]

So, do you disagree with the idea “God’s Right to Condemn All People”?

The doctrine would be consistent if every human being was hell bound at conception, but if you are making exceptions you need to explain the scripture supporting those exceptions.

What I see in scripture is people being condemned (hell bound) for their sins, they are accountable for and not Adam and Eve’s sin, so are we in agreement or do you have another criteria?

The best I can say at this point is that all are in Adam, as stated in Romans 5. Also


For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
— 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

So we all die in Adam, and that’s because of his sin. But we still have no excuse be we sin, too. Scripture isn’t clear on the subject of the unborn and infants. And so will I.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I can’t figure out how you are reading that. It’s says the saving effectiveness of Christ’s death works itself out in the elect. Faith is a product of Christ’s death, not election. Election is just who He died for.

And I can't figure out why you can't see the connection.

If election is "just who He died for", then election is clearly involved in WHO God will save.

So, as I've asked many times bzefore, since election is a choice, what specifically is God choosing people FOR?

Regarding your comment about faith being a product of Christ death, where is that taught in the Bible?

Sounds llike another example of puppetry/robotics.

Since Christ only died for some, those some will believe. Cause and effect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So we all die in Adam, and that’s because of his sin. But we still have no excuse be we sin, too. Scripture isn’t clear on the subject of the unborn and infants. And so will I.

I think Scripture gives us a pretty clear picture about infants.

First, we learn about what is called the "age of accountability" found in Isa 7:14,15
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

These verses are speaking of the humanity of Jesus, obviuosly, but the principle applies to all humans. When a person "knows enough to reject wrong and choose right" speaks to when a person has reached a level of accountability.

iow, before a person "knows enough" they aren't accountable to reject wrong and choose right. That would include all infants, mentally challenged, etc.

Now, let's consider what David said about his 1 week old son:
2 Sam 12-
22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

David was certain that he would see that 1 week old son again, obviously referring to eternity.

Some Calvinists have explained to me that David was only referring to the grave, about David joining his son. But that doesn't make sense, since David was saved and had a proper view of the afterlife. Only an unbeliever whould say something like "well, I'm going to join him in the grave". That's about as far as many unbelievers think.

But not David. He knew exactly where he would be in death- heaven. Just like his 1 week old son went to be.

So, I conclude that until a person "knows enough" to reject wrong and choose right, if they die, they will go to heaven.

And I believe this because Jesus Christ died for all, so their sins have been paid for.

But once a person "knows enough" to reject wrong and choose right, they have no excuse for ignoring the gospel, or ignoring what God has plainly made plain to them about His existence and divine power through creation (Romans 1:19-21).

Eternal life is a gift. It is given freely. People are going to the lake of fire for failing to receive the free gift. It's that simple. Sins have been paid for. No one goes to the lake of fire to pay for their own sins.

They go there because they are not qualified to live with God forever. They do not have His eternal life.

 

[Hammster]

And I can't figure out why you can't see the connection.

If election is "just who He died for", then election is clearly involved in WHO God will save.

So, as I've asked many times bzefore, since election is a choice, what specifically is God choosing people FOR?

Regarding your comment about faith being a product of Christ death, where is that taught in the Bible?

Sounds llike another example of puppetry/robotics.

Since Christ only died for some, those some will believe. Cause and effect.

First off, I never said that there’s no connection between election and righteousness. We are elected to salvation. I’m agreeing with the article that states Christ saves. The other heads go into more detail about how Christ saves.

As to what God is choosing people for, that’s easy. His glory.


What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
— Romans 9:22-23

 

[FreeGrace2]

First off, I never said that there’s connection between election and righteousness.

I never said anything about election and righteousness, so I don't know why you bring this up.

We are elected to salvation.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally, you have answered the question I've asked a number of times.

Now, what does the "U" in TULIP stand for?

I’m agreeing with the article that states Christ saves.

And you know that this isn't the issue at all.

As to what God is choosing people for, that’s easy. His glory.

Uh, no. You JUST said "we are elected (chosen) for salvation".

So, that (salvation) is what we are chosen FOR.

Listen, everything is for His glory. You're just trying to throw a blanket on the issue here.

Election is FOR salvation. And you JUST said as much. Thank you again.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
— Romans 9:22-23

And yet, there isn't even a mention of election here.

btw, you should know that the Greek word in v.22 cannot mean "prepared", since 'katartizo' means to mend, fix, repair, adjust to fit, etc.

The Greek word for 'prepared' in v.23 DOES mean that.

No one was prepared for destruction. That's a huge heresy.

Well, now we're finally at the crux of election.

Calvinists claim people are elected TO salvation. That means God chooses (and that choice is unconditional) who to save.

But, 1 Cor 1:21 says that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". Hm. This verse refutes the Calvinistic notion of election.

If election is 'unconditonal' as TULIP indicates, than 1 Cor 1:21 was extremely poorly worded. One could even say ERRONEOUSLY worded.

Belief is a condition. IF you believe, you will be saved. That was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

So, TULIP is unbiblical. Salvation is NOT unconditional.

There are NO verses that say that people are elected to salvation.

There are many verses that say that people are saved by faith, by believing in Christ, which is a condition.

I have presented no straw men here, only what the Word of God says. And it doesn't say that God elects people to salvation unconditionally.

Thank you for the opportunity to shed biblical light on your canons.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are elected to salvation.

Just to emphasize a point I've been making.

Since TULIP claims that people are elected to salvatation unconditionally, that proves that Calvinism reduces believing in Christ to a mere side effect or by product of election.

iow, through election, a person WILL believe. And, as you've finally admitted, Calvinism teaches that people are elected (unconditionally) to salvation.

So, when you quote Eph 2:8, you are refuting your own theology.

God chooses who He will save, and that choice (election) is unconditional. So faith doesn't play any part of salvation. it's reduced to a mere side effect or by product of being chosen.

While Calvinism cannot provide ANY verse that teaches that God unconditionally elects people to salvation, I CAN prove that God elects or chooses people for SERVICE.

Was the Son of God chosen to salvation? No, He was chosen to be the Savior.
Was the nation of Israel chosen to salvation? No, they were chosen to preserve God's Word.
Was Paul chosen to salvation? No, Acts 8:15 says clearly that he was a "chosen instrument of Mine, to preach the gospel to Gentiles.

All this is to service. None of this is to salvation.

 

[Hammster]

But, 1 Cor 1:21 says that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". Hm. This verse refutes the Calvinistic notion of election.

Made righteous by faith? That’s in the Reformed wheelhouse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I quoted:
"But, 1 Cor 1:21 says that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". Hm. This verse refutes the Calvinistic notion of election."

Made righteous by faith?

What is your question in reference to? And how does it relate to 1 Cor 1:21?

That’s in the Reformed wheelhouse.

I posted twice, and this is all you reply with?

Your admission that "we are elected to salvation" supports by claim. Since reformed election is unconditional, that PROVES that salvation is by election, and faith is only a by product or side effect of being elected.

 

[Hammster]

I quoted:
"But, 1 Cor 1:21 says that "God is pleased...to save those who believe". Hm. This verse refutes the Calvinistic notion of election."

What is your question in reference to? And how does it relate to 1 Cor 1:21?


I posted twice, and this is all you reply with?

Your admission that "we are elected to salvation" supports by claim. Since reformed election is unconditional, that PROVES that salvation is by election, and faith is only a by product or side effect of being elected.

We are made righteous by faith. That’s what 1 Corinthians is saying. That’s not foreign to Reformed Theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are made righteous by faith. That’s what 1 Corinthians is saying. That’s not foreign to Reformed Theology.

No, 1 Cor 1:21 says that God is pleased to save those who believe.

If one believes, God will save them. This proves that the condition for being saved by God is to believe in His Son.

Now, would you please address posts 31 and 32?

 

[bling]

The best I can say at this point is that all are in Adam, as stated in Romans 5. Also


For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
— 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

So we all die in Adam, and that’s because of his sin. But we still have no excuse be we sin, too. Scripture isn’t clear on the subject of the unborn and infants. And so will I.

The Canons of Dort articles build on the previous articles, so it starts with a vengeful hateful God needing to satisfy Himself with the condemning of everyone. It does not begin by presenting God as Love and Loving and wanting everyone to be saved.

Yes, we, including babies, all physically die because Adam and Eve sinned, but is death bad in and of itself and thus punishment?

Article 1 says: Since all people have sinned in Adam and have come under the sentence of the curse and eternal death, God would have done no one an injustice if it had been his will to leave the entire human race in sin and under the curse… Which you are suggesting you disagree with because the Bible does not teach us that babies, infants and those who mentally never mature are condemned to hell, but is that what you are saying?

We seem to agree that the Bible does not say: “All humans are made hell bound because Adam and Eve sinned” (since that would include infants).

I would say even though the Bible does not address specifically infants and mentally challenged individual but the Bible is very clear about God’s Love, justice and concern for humans so the answer is obvious and we know our personal sins condemn us and the Bible does say that. This would then suggest infants are in a safe condition not needing to be saved, because they have not yet sinned.

I know you would like to drop this weak point in the Canons of Dort, but the whole Canon builds on God being venville toward humans.

 

[Hammster]

No, 1 Cor 1:21 says that God is pleased to save those who believe.

If one believes, God will save them. This proves that the condition for being saved by God is to believe in His Son.

Now, would you please address posts 31 and 32?

You equated salvation with justification. So yes, we are made righteous by faith. See Romans 4.

 

[Hammster]

The Canons of Dort articles build on the previous articles, so it starts with a vengeful hateful God needing to satisfy Himself with the condemning of everyone.

Since you’ve went full straw man, I think we are done.

 

[Hammster]

God chooses who He will save, and that choice (election) is unconditional. So faith doesn't play any part of salvation. it's reduced to a mere side effect or by product of being chosen.

Dort would disagree.
THIRD AND FOURTH HEAD: ARTICLE 11. But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.