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Strong in Him

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I asked you if you could show me that in scripture. You didn't.

My point was that Jesus did not teach the laws in Leviticus; animal sacrifices, food and hygiene laws, rising in the presence of the aged etc etc.
I can't show you that from Scripture because it's not there; he simply didn't teach it.
 
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Strong in Him

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let's not leave off the end of the sentence.

"but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Circumcision WAS an OT command of God for those people - and is even for Jews today.

It makes no sense to say "circumcision is nothing, but only keeping the commands of God - one of which is circumcision.
 
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My point was that Jesus did not teach the laws in Leviticus; animal sacrifices, food and hygiene laws, rising in the presence of the aged etc etc.
I can't show you that from Scripture because it's not there; he simply didn't teach it.

He taught that all of the law is in effect.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

I don't subscribe to loopholes for the ones he didn't mention by name, like blasphemy and homosexuality.
 
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Strong in Him

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Does that covenant not extend to the children of Abraham?

No.
The covenant with Abraham was "I will make your descendants more numerous than the grains of sand on the shore".
He made that with Abraham, not us.
True, he told Abraham's descendants to be circumcised - and Jews still are. Those who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, keep the Mosaic law and are still waiting for the Messiah, are circumcised.
Those who have accepted Jesus, are not under the law and are children of God in the NEW Covenant, need not be.

Though thankfully as I cannot be circumcised, I have only Jesus.:amen::clap:
 
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Circumcision WAS an OT command of God for those people - and is even for Jews today.

Circumcision seals the faith of the sons of Abraham. We've covered this.

It makes no sense to say "circumcision is nothing, but only keeping the commands of God - one of which is circumcision.

Even Peter said that Paul was difficult to understand. Peter was one of 3, who were closest to Yahshua, one who knew things about Yahshua that the other nine didn't know.

If even Peter says that Paul is difficult to understand, when he spoke to him face to face, in their own language; you can be sure that Paul is difficult to understand. For those who have difficulty with Paul's letters, I would encourage them to look to the TaNaK, the Gospels, and the Epistles of the other Apostles; to get a strong understanding of YHWH's message, before trying to understand Paul.
 
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No.
The covenant with Abraham was "I will make your descendants more numerous than the grains of sand on the shore".
He made that with Abraham, not us.
True, he told Abraham's descendants to be circumcised - and Jews still are. Those who worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, keep the Mosaic law and are still waiting for the Messiah, are circumcised.
Those who have accepted Jesus, are not under the law and are children of God in the NEW Covenant, need not be.

Though thankfully as I cannot be circumcised, I have only Jesus.:amen::clap:

I accept Paul's teaching.

(CLV) Ga 3:26
for you are all sons of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

(CLV) Ga 3:27
For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

(CLV) Ga 3:29
Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise.
 
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Strong in Him

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Surely you aren't suggesting that the covenant of Abraham is null and void?

God made a covenant with Abraham and he has died. But many descendants of Abraham are still being born, so you could say that it's still being fulfilled.
We, however, are children of God through Jesus.

You seem to forget that although Christianity has its roots in Judaism and we share the OT, it is in fact a different religion - based on and centred round Jesus.

Christianity was seen as a Jewish sect - much as the JWs are a Christian sect today. Early Christians were persecuted; by Rome, but by the Jews as well - just as Jesus was.
Jesus was rejected by the majority of Pharisees. They did not see him as the perfect embodiment of the law; they saw him as a blasphemer. On one occasion they tried to stone him because he said "before Abraham was, I am", John 8:58.
Peter and John were thrown in prison, more than once; James was beheaded, Stephen was stoned, with Saul's approval. He himself, after meeting with Jesus, was stoned, flogged and rejected for preaching Jesus as the Messiah. Even when he spoke of his Jewish heritage and Pharisaic qualifications and momentarily silenced his critics, when he spoke of Jesus and his resurrection, they tried to kill him. He spoke out against circumcision and they persecuted him, Galatians 5:11.

The early church never said "Christianity is the fulfilment and extension of Judaism", and anyone who taught that circumcision and keeping the law were still necessary for salvation and in order to become one of God's people, was a false preacher.

I don't believe it's true to say that Christianity has replaced Judaism, as some appear to claim. Jews and Gentiles alike can now be saved through Jesus, the Messiah; who was born a Jew and fulfilled the Jewish law and prophets.
Gentiles are not required to convert to Judaism to be saved; only to convert to Jesus.
 
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Strong in Him

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Circumcision seals the faith of the sons of Abraham. We've covered this.

I'm not a son of Abraham; I'm a daughter of God.

Even Peter said that Paul was difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand; that's downright contradictory.
"Circumcision is nothing; what matters is keeping God's commands - one of which was circumcision".
Either Paul contradicted himself in the same sentence, didn't realise he was doing so and the Holy Spirit decided to keep that in Scripture to confuse us; or Paul meant something else by "the commands of God." I know which I believe.

For those who have difficulty with Paul's letters, I would encourage them to look to the TaNaK, the Gospels, and the Epistles of the other Apostles; to get a strong understanding of YHWH's message, before trying to understand Paul.

I don't have difficulty with Paul's letters.

Saul of Tarsus was a devout Jew, zealous Pharisee and hated those who were proclaiming a false Christ and misleading Jews in their faith - so much so that he persecuted them.
While on his way to Damascus to get letters which would allow him to carry out further persecutions, he met with Jesus. He was blinded, healed converted and repented and proclaimed that Jesus was the Messiah - the apostles were scared of him at first because he had been their persecutor and they didn't believe the change in him. Paul listed his Jewish heritage and achievements in Philippians 3 - and said that compared with the joy of knowing Christ all that was garbage. He remained Jewish and no one could take his history, nationality and ancestors away from him - but he was now a Jew who accepted and proclaimed Jesus. Paul spoke against anyone who tried to teach that circumcision and adopting the Jewish faith was necessary for salvation.
 
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Strong in Him

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I accept Paul's teaching.

So do I - anyone who teaches that circumcision is necessary is saying that Christ is of no benefit at all, Galatians 5:2.

As I said, it's irrelevant for me anyway; I just have Jesus. And no Christian or Christian minister or member of the clergy has ever taught circumcision for Christian boys - not in any of the many churches that I've belonged to.
Baptism, sure; circumcision never.
 
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That's not difficult to understand; that's downright contradictory.
"Circumcision is nothing; what matters is keeping God's commands - one of which was circumcision".
Either Paul contradicted himself in the same sentence, didn't realise he was doing so and the Holy Spirit decided to keep that in Scripture to confuse us; or Paul meant something else by "the commands of God." I know which I believe.

Oh My.

It's very similar to saying that YHWH's intent for us is nothing but good.

I'm not saying that YHWH's intent for us is nothing.
 
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So do I - anyone who teaches that circumcision is necessary is saying that Christ is of no benefit at all, Galatians 5:2.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
 
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Strong in Him

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He taught that all of the law is in effect.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

He was speaking to those who were under the law; those who rejected him as the Messiah.

ALL the law means rising in the presence of the aged, not trimming your beard, wearing clothes of one fabric, etc. He never commented on those.

And for the Jews, part of their law HAS disappeared - they no longer offer animal sacrifices.
Leviticus chapters 1-6 has a whole lot of instructions about which sacrifices were to be offered for which sins, how they were to be prepared and so on. While the next few chapters tell of the priests' role in all of this.
Presumably Jews would still read those chapters and say that the laws still stand - yet they don't do them. If that was to be a command from God for all time, why do Jews not obey these laws today?

And Christians have the once and for all sacrifice of Christ.
It would frankly be insulting to God to accept all that Jesus has done and then sacrifice your pet lambs to atone for your own sin.
 
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As I said, it's irrelevant for me anyway; I just have Jesus. And no Christian or Christian minister or member of the clergy has ever taught circumcision for Christian boys - not in any of the many churches that I've belonged to.
Baptism, sure; circumcision never.

Baptism is much like circumcision. It's an outward sign of what has taken place within.

If the change has not taken place within; Baptism means nothing.
 
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He was speaking to those who were under the law; those who rejected him as the Messiah.

If we are obedient to the law; we are not under the law. Those who are under the law, are those who transgress the law.

The law brings blessings for those who obey, and curses for those who transgress.
 
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ALL the law means rising in the presence of the aged, not trimming your beard, wearing clothes of one fabric, etc. He never commented on those.

I've refuted that assertion ad nauseam.

He commented on that when he told us to keep all of his father's word.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

What say ye?
 
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Baptism is much like circumcision. It's an outward sign of what has taken place within.

If the change has not taken place within; Baptism means nothing.

I agree with all of that, but that wasn't my point.
No Christian clergy members teach, or have ever taught, circumcision for Christian boys.
It's not our doctrine or practice.
 
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He taught that all of the law is in effect.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

I don't subscribe to loopholes for the ones he didn't mention by name, like blasphemy and homosexuality.

Where does the one serif fall?? Luke 16:17-18, "The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a letter in the law to become void."
 
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If we are obedient to the law; we are not under the law.

I disagree.
If you keep all the food, hygiene and other laws of Leviticus - those that aren't gender specific - you are under, and governed by, the law, rather than being free in Christ who has fulfilled the law.
 
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I've refuted that assertion ad nauseam.

He commented on that when he told us to keep all of his father's word.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

What say ye?

You know what I say; I've been saying it throughout this thread - and the many others on the same subject.

1. I am not Jewish, was not brought up on the law and believe that Jesus told the Pharisees he had fulfilled it.
2 You still haven't defined what you mean by the law. I regard it as everything written in the books of the law, but when I mention rising in the presence of the aged, etc, you suddenly talk about "God's perfect Torah".
3 The 10 commandments were part of the law given at Sinai; as they were affirmed by Jesus, they still stand. We are to love God and our neighbour.
4 The law has not passed away, or fallen, for those who have rejected their Messiah - even though they do not offer animal sacrifices as laid down in the law.
5 Jesus did not teach us to follow him and keep the law. he did not teach that the law gives eternal life.
6 The early church did not teach Gentiles to obey the law.
7 Paul said that circumcision is nothing and that those who observe it are saying that Christ is of no use to them at all.
8 Hebrews says that the first covenant is old and obsolete.

If you believe it is important to keep ALL of the Jewish law; go for it.
It is not standard Christian teaching, however.
 
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No Christian clergy members teach, or have ever taught, circumcision for Christian boys.
It's not our doctrine or practice.

That's far from the truth.

The United States is an outlier with regards to other predominately Christian Western nations. As of 2007, fifty-five percent of newborn males were circumcised, a significant decline from years past.[56]

Religious male circumcision - Wikipedia
 
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