The Antichrist is Not Jewish or Israeli

[BABerean2]

I am saying those are not part of the stoppage of the daily sacrifice by the little horn vision to take place at the time of the end that Gabriel spoke of.


Look at the correct square on the right...the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4 reveals the person as the man of sin.


View attachment 286574

Daniel's Vision of the Ram and the Goat (subtitle from eSword)

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The Interpretation of the Vision (subtitle from eSword)

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Have you ever heard of Alexander the Great and the four generals who inherited his empire?

Have you ever heard of Antiochus Epiphanes who came through from one of those empires?


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[Douggg]

Have you ever heard of Alexander the Great and the four generals who inherited his empire?

Have you ever heard of Antiochus Epiphanes who came through from one of those empires?

Yes, they were not time of the end.

Verse 22 is historic to us. Verse 23 is end times. The kingdom in verse 23 is that of the ten kings and little horn person in Daniel 7. Verses 23 - 27 is end times.

The transgression of desolation act is in 2Thesslaonians2:4.

 

[Biltong65]

Assuming the whole dispensationalist / pre-trib thing (or any other scenario) I can't see the Antichrist as being tribal Israeli Jew, nor tribal Arab Muslim. It will be someone amenable to both sides, under the guise of "globalism".

 

[Douggg]

Assuming the whole dispensationalist / pre-trib thing (or any other scenario) I can't see the Antichrist as being tribal Israeli Jew, nor tribal Arab Muslim. It will be someone amenable to both sides, under the guise of "globalism".

Bilton65, welcome to the eschatology forum. respectfully, I think you have a lot to learn about the subject of the Antichrist.

 

[Timtofly]

The False prophet comes out of the sea accoring to John's take of Daniel in Revelation 13. The AC is the image of the FP. Satan is the power broker coming out of the land or standing on the seashore "pulling" the FP into the 21st century.

 

[BABerean2]

Verse 22 is historic to us. Verse 23 is end times.

Those verses are a part of the interpretation of verses Daniel 8:1-14.


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[1an]

Have a read of this from one of my Bible commentaries.

Daniel 9:1-27
IX. DANIEL'S VISION OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF GENTILE SUPREMACY (Chap. 9)

9:1, 2 This chapter takes place during the reign of Darius the Mede. By studying the book of Jeremiah, Daniel realized that the seventy years of captivity were almost at an end.

9:3-19 He confessed his sins and the sins of his people (he used the word our) and asked the Lord to fulfill His promises concerning Jerusalem and the people of Judah. In answer to his prayers God granted the prophet the very important revelation of the "seventy weeks," which has been called "the backbone of Bible prophecy."

Daniel's petitions were based on the character of God (His greatness, awesomeness, faithfulness, righteousness, forgiveness, mercies) and on His interests (Your people, Your city, Your holy mountain, Your sanctuary).

9:20-23 While he was . . . praying, Gabriel, being caused to fly swiftly, reached Daniel about the time of the evening sacrifice. He told him that he was greatly beloved, a tremendous tribute, coming as it did from God Himself. He then gave him an outline of the future history of the Jewish nation under the figure of seventy weeks. Each "week" represents seven years. Since the prophecy is so crucial to understanding God's program, we will examine it phrase by phrase.

9:24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem). The historical fulfillment of the first part of the prophecy shows that the weeks are weeks of years. Thus seventy weeks equal 490 years. We will see that the seventy weeks are divided into seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks, and then, after a time gap, one final week. At the end of these seventy weeks, the following six things will happen:

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins. While this may refer in a general sense to all Israel's sinful ways, it has special reference to the nation's rejection of the Messiah. At the Second Advent of Christ, a remnant will turn to Him in faith and the nation's transgression and sins will be forgiven.

To make reconciliation for iniquity. The basis for reconciliation was laid at Calvary, but this refers to the time, still future, when the believing portion of the nation of Israel will come into the benefit and enjoyment of the finished work of Christ.

To bring in everlasting righteousness. This, too, points forward to the Second Advent and the Millennium, when the King will reign in righteousness. It is everlasting righteousness in the sense that it will continue on into the eternal state.

To seal up vision and prophecy. The main body of OT prophecy centers on the glorious Return of Christ to earth, and His subsequent kingdom. Therefore, the bulk of prophecies will be fulfilled at the end of the seventy weeks.

And to anoint the Most Holy Place. At the beginning of the thousand-year reign, the temple described in Ezekiel 40-44 will be anointed or consecrated in Jerusalem. The glory will return in the Person of the Lord (Eze_43:1-5).

9:25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. (Neh_2:1-8).

Until Messiah the Prince. This refers not merely to the First Advent of Christ, but more particularly to His death (see v. 26a).

There shall be seven weeks (forty-nine years) and sixty-two weeks (434 years). The sixty-nine weeks are divided into two periods, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

The city shall be built again, with plaza and moat, even in troublesome times. Jerusalem would be rebuilt (during the first seven weeks) with public square and protective channel, but not without opposition and turmoil.

9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks—that is, after the sixty-two week portion of time, which is really at the end of the sixty-ninth week,

The Messiah shall be cut off. Here we have an unmistakable reference to the Savior's death on the cross. A century ago in his book The Coming Prince, Sir Robert Anderson gave detailed calculations of the sixty-nine weeks, using "prophetic years," allowing for leap years, errors in the calendar, the change from B.C. to A.D., etc., and figured that the sixty-nine weeks ended on the very day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, five days before his death.
But not for Himself, or literally and have nothing. This may mean that He had received nothing from the nation of Israel, to which He had come. Or it may mean that He died without apparent posterity (Isa_53:8). Or it may be a general statement of His utter poverty; He left nothing but the clothes that He wore.

And the people of the prince who is to come. This prince who is to come is the head of the revived Roman Empire, identified by some as the Antichrist. He will come to power during the Tribulation. His people, of course, are the Romans. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Romans, under Titus, destroyed Jerusalem and its magnificent gold-trimmed white marble temple in A.D. 70.

The end of it shall be with a flood. The city was leveled as if by a flood. Not one stone of the temple, for instance, was left on another. Titus forbade his soldiers to put Herod's temple to the torch, but in order to get the gold they disobeyed, thus melting down the gold. To retrieve the melted gold successfully from between the stones they had to pry loose the great stones, thus fulfilling Christ's words in Mat_24:1-2, as well as Daniel's prophecy.

And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.

9:27 We now come to the seventieth week. As mentioned previously, there is a time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. This parenthetical period is the Church Age, which extends from Pentecost to the Rapture. It is never mentioned specifically in the OT; it was a secret hidden in God from the foundation of the world but revealed by the apostles and prophets of the NT period.

However, the principle of a gap is nicely illustrated by our Lord in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luk_4:18-19). Jesus quoted Isa_61:1, Isa_61:2 a but cut it short at "the acceptable year of the LORD" (His First Advent), and left off the judgment of His Second Advent: "and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isa_61:2 b). In between was to occur the whole Church Age.

Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period). It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.

But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Mat_24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.

Shall be one who makes desolate. He will persecute and destroy those who refuse to worship the image.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Terrible persecution of the Jews will continue for the last half of the seventieth week, a period known as the Great Tribulation. Then the Roman prince, "the one who makes desolate," will himself be destroyed, as decreed by God, by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev_19:20).

(Source, "The Believers Bible.")

 

[Dale]

Dale, I never said that the State of Israel, the government, will anoint someone as a Jewish King.

There have only been three kings of Israel, the united nation before it broke up after Solomon.

The three kings were anointed King by a prophet.

Saul and David by the prophet Samuel
Solomon by the prophet Nathan

The Jew believe the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet as well. The Jews are looking for Elijah to appear right before the messianic age begins. The false prophet in Revelation 13 does a miracle of calling fire down from heaven, indicating that he will claim to be Elijah.

The person who becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet. That will be right before the 7 years officially begin, by the Antichrist reading the law to the nation of Israel from the temple mount.


The person will be a direct descendant from David. How he will prove it, I don't know.

The reason being that he will be a direct descendant from David is Jesus is the righteous branch descended from David.

In Isaiah 14, the person we are referring to is likened to an "abominable branch" which is just opposite of Jesus the righteous branch. Who that person draws God's ire because he destroys his land and slays his people - he is a Jew, descended from David.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Doug: "The Jew believe the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet as well. The Jews are looking for Elijah to appear right before the messianic age begins."


Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it.

Modern Israel doesn't have any "known prophets" because modern Israel doesn't believe there are prophets in the present day.



Doug: << In Isaiah 14, the person we are referring to is likened to an "abominable branch" which is just opposite of Jesus the righteous branch. Who that person draws God's ire because he destroys his land and slays his people - he is a Jew, descended from David. >>



Isaiah 14 is about the destruction of the King of Babylon and all of his line, the entire Babylonian royal family, when the Mede-Persian empire defeated Babylon and took over.

From John Gill's commentary on Isaiah 14:21:

<< Prepare slaughter for his children
These words are directed to the Medes and Persians, to prepare instruments of slaughter, and make use of them; and prepare themselves for the slaughter of the whole royal family [of Babylon], Belshazzar and all his children ... >>


The "abominable branch" has nothing to do with the hereditary line of Jesus.

From John Gill's commentary on Isaiah 14:19:

<< Like an abominable branch;
cut off from a tree as useless and hurtful, and cast upon the ground, where it lies and rots, and is good for nothing, neither for fuel, nor anything else, but is neglected and despised of all ... >>


Links
Isaiah 14:19 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
Isaiah 14:21 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

 

[Dale]

Dale, when Daniel started praying in Daniel 9, he referred to Jeremiah and the length of time that
the Jews would be in Babylonian captivity while the land got here backlog of sabbath (once every 7 year) rests. Ten of them for a total of 70 years.

They call it a smitah year (spelled various ways). debts released. and the land getting a year's rest to recover from being worked.

So the 7 year periods in Daniel 9 are actually smitah cycles.

Moses back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made a requirement that every 7 years, as being the smitah year, called the year of release in verse 10, the leader of Israel would read the law to the gathering of the people of Israel - I am assuming Moses timed it that way because people would not be tied to farming the land and would be available that practical year.

Moses also timed the reading of the law to the feast of tabernacles, and to the place of God's choosing. Since the time of the temple, that place is considered the temple mount.

All in all, what Moses was doing was setting forth a requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 years cycle, i.e. for 7 years.

There is actually a name for the reading of the law on the 7 years cycle... called Hakhel.

ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakhel

"The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years.[1]"

So that's is where I am coming up with the confirming the covenant for 7 years is talking about the Mt. Sinai covenant - by the Antichrist, perceived messiah, and anointed King of Israel, coming in his own name.

Until around three years later, thereabouts, he commits the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah as the Jews will have first thought. It will be the end of his time as being the Antichrist, King of Israel.

Daniel 9 does not indicate anything about the gospel taken to the gentiles. And there is nothing in the new testament of Jesus instructing any one to confirm the new covenant for 7 years.

But Moses did require that the Mt. Sinai covenant be confirmed on a 7 year cycle.

Doug in post #4: "Moses back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made a requirement that every 7 years, as being the smitah year, called the year of release in verse 10, the leader of Israel would read the law to the gathering of the people of Israel ..."

Doug: "All in all, what Moses was doing was setting forth a requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 years cycle, i.e. for 7 years."

Doug: "So that's is where I am coming up with the confirming the covenant for 7 years is talking about the Mt. Sinai covenant - by the Antichrist, perceived messiah, and anointed King of Israel, coming in his own name."

Doug in post #8: "But Moses did require that the Mt. Sinai covenant be confirmed on a 7 year cycle. "



Apparently the only thing this has to do with the identity of a coming antichrist is that you say that he has to be Jewish to confirm the covenant. There is no reason to believe a coming antichrist will confirm the covenant or any reason to believe he will be Jewish.

Deuteronomy 31:11 says the law shall be read before the people at the Feast of Tabernacles.
Deuteronomy 31:12 says that the people shall "listen and learn" the law.

Public reading of the law, or Deuteronomy, is not "renewing the Covenant."

The only King of Israel to "renew the covenant" before the people was King Josiah in II Kings 23:1-3 and II Chronicles 34:29-31. He did not do so at the end of a seven year period. He did it because the new book of the law (Deuteronomy?) had been found and because the Prophetess Huldah told him that God intended to send disaster because the Law wasn't being followed. Commentators don't believe that King Josiah read it himself. He probably had it read.

From John Gill's commentary on II Kings 23:2:

<< and all the people, both small and great;
a very numerous assembly:

and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant
which was found in the house of the Lord:
that is, he caused it to be read by others, and perhaps by more than one, the congregation being so large. >>

Josiah is the King who smashed the idols in Israel. He is in no way a prototype for a coming antichrist.

Link
2 Kings 23:2 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

 

[Douggg]

Doug: "The Jew believe the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet as well. The Jews are looking for Elijah to appear right before the messianic age begins."


Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it.

Modern Israel doesn't have any "known prophets" because modern Israel doesn't believe there are prophets in the present day.

Here is a link to a Jewish countermissionary site MessiahTruth

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mes...rDItZ99dImBHBIp5hW0F0O0uhSmjMV4elWZfN3LzABu_g

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mes...+anointed+by+a+known+prophet&fid[]=1&start=25

 

[Douggg]

Apparently the only thing this has to do with the identity of a coming antichrist is that you say that he has to be Jewish to confirm the covenant. There is no reason to believe a coming antichrist will confirm the covenant or any reason to believe he will be Jewish.

The person has to be a Jew to become the Antichrist, King of Israel coming in his own name.

The confirming of the covenant is the responsibility of the King of Israel. It has a name for it, Hakhel.

Hakhel - Wikipedia

The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years.[1]

 

[BABerean2]

Have a read of this from one of my Bible commentaries.

Daniel 9:1-27
IX. DANIEL'S VISION OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF GENTILE SUPREMACY (Chap. 9)

9:1, 2 This chapter takes place during the reign of Darius the Mede. By studying the book of Jeremiah, Daniel realized that the seventy years of captivity were almost at an end.

9:3-19 He confessed his sins and the sins of his people (he used the word our) and asked the Lord to fulfill His promises concerning Jerusalem and the people of Judah. In answer to his prayers God granted the prophet the very important revelation of the "seventy weeks," which has been called "the backbone of Bible prophecy."

Daniel's petitions were based on the character of God (His greatness, awesomeness, faithfulness, righteousness, forgiveness, mercies) and on His interests (Your people, Your city, Your holy mountain, Your sanctuary).

9:20-23 While he was . . . praying, Gabriel, being caused to fly swiftly, reached Daniel about the time of the evening sacrifice. He told him that he was greatly beloved, a tremendous tribute, coming as it did from God Himself. He then gave him an outline of the future history of the Jewish nation under the figure of seventy weeks. Each "week" represents seven years. Since the prophecy is so crucial to understanding God's program, we will examine it phrase by phrase.

9:24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem). The historical fulfillment of the first part of the prophecy shows that the weeks are weeks of years. Thus seventy weeks equal 490 years. We will see that the seventy weeks are divided into seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks, and then, after a time gap, one final week. At the end of these seventy weeks, the following six things will happen:

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins. While this may refer in a general sense to all Israel's sinful ways, it has special reference to the nation's rejection of the Messiah. At the Second Advent of Christ, a remnant will turn to Him in faith and the nation's transgression and sins will be forgiven.

To make reconciliation for iniquity. The basis for reconciliation was laid at Calvary, but this refers to the time, still future, when the believing portion of the nation of Israel will come into the benefit and enjoyment of the finished work of Christ.

To bring in everlasting righteousness. This, too, points forward to the Second Advent and the Millennium, when the King will reign in righteousness. It is everlasting righteousness in the sense that it will continue on into the eternal state.

To seal up vision and prophecy. The main body of OT prophecy centers on the glorious Return of Christ to earth, and His subsequent kingdom. Therefore, the bulk of prophecies will be fulfilled at the end of the seventy weeks.

And to anoint the Most Holy Place. At the beginning of the thousand-year reign, the temple described in Ezekiel 40-44 will be anointed or consecrated in Jerusalem. The glory will return in the Person of the Lord (Eze_43:1-5).

9:25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. (Neh_2:1-8).

Until Messiah the Prince. This refers not merely to the First Advent of Christ, but more particularly to His death (see v. 26a).

There shall be seven weeks (forty-nine years) and sixty-two weeks (434 years). The sixty-nine weeks are divided into two periods, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

The city shall be built again, with plaza and moat, even in troublesome times. Jerusalem would be rebuilt (during the first seven weeks) with public square and protective channel, but not without opposition and turmoil.

9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks—that is, after the sixty-two week portion of time, which is really at the end of the sixty-ninth week,

The Messiah shall be cut off. Here we have an unmistakable reference to the Savior's death on the cross. A century ago in his book The Coming Prince, Sir Robert Anderson gave detailed calculations of the sixty-nine weeks, using "prophetic years," allowing for leap years, errors in the calendar, the change from B.C. to A.D., etc., and figured that the sixty-nine weeks ended on the very day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, five days before his death.
But not for Himself, or literally and have nothing. This may mean that He had received nothing from the nation of Israel, to which He had come. Or it may mean that He died without apparent posterity (Isa_53:8). Or it may be a general statement of His utter poverty; He left nothing but the clothes that He wore.

And the people of the prince who is to come. This prince who is to come is the head of the revived Roman Empire, identified by some as the Antichrist. He will come to power during the Tribulation. His people, of course, are the Romans. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Romans, under Titus, destroyed Jerusalem and its magnificent gold-trimmed white marble temple in A.D. 70.

The end of it shall be with a flood. The city was leveled as if by a flood. Not one stone of the temple, for instance, was left on another. Titus forbade his soldiers to put Herod's temple to the torch, but in order to get the gold they disobeyed, thus melting down the gold. To retrieve the melted gold successfully from between the stones they had to pry loose the great stones, thus fulfilling Christ's words in Mat_24:1-2, as well as Daniel's prophecy.

And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.

9:27 We now come to the seventieth week. As mentioned previously, there is a time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. This parenthetical period is the Church Age, which extends from Pentecost to the Rapture. It is never mentioned specifically in the OT; it was a secret hidden in God from the foundation of the world but revealed by the apostles and prophets of the NT period.

However, the principle of a gap is nicely illustrated by our Lord in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luk_4:18-19). Jesus quoted Isa_61:1, Isa_61:2 a but cut it short at "the acceptable year of the LORD" (His First Advent), and left off the judgment of His Second Advent: "and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isa_61:2 b). In between was to occur the whole Church Age.

Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period). It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.

But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Mat_24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.

Shall be one who makes desolate. He will persecute and destroy those who refuse to worship the image.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Terrible persecution of the Jews will continue for the last half of the seventieth week, a period known as the Great Tribulation. Then the Roman prince, "the one who makes desolate," will himself be destroyed, as decreed by God, by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev_19:20).

(Source, "The Believers Bible.")

Sir Robert Anderson was a friend of C.I. Scofield.
They both ignored the New Covenant predicted in Jeremiah 31;31-34, and Daniel chapter 9.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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[1an]

Sir Robert Anderson was a friend of C.I. Scofield.
They both ignored the New Covenant predicted in Jeremiah 31;31-34, and Daniel chapter 9.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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We know about the New Covenant under which we presently live, and the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesy in this dispensation, so no need to debate it or include it when we consider the end times and the SECOND coming of the Lord with those who deny his first appearing.

Jesus is coming AGAIN.

(I haven't got a clue who Sir Robert Anderson is, neither do I want to know.)
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[BABerean2]

(I haven't got a clue who Sir Robert Anderson is, neither do I want to know.)

Then why did you include that information about Anderson in your post?

Do you think God is going back to the Old Covenant during a future time?


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[1an]

Then why did you include that information about Anderson in your post?

Do you think God is going back to the Old Covenant during a future time?
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I have nothing more to say.

 

[Dale]

Assuming the whole dispensationalist / pre-trib thing (or any other scenario) I can't see the Antichrist as being tribal Israeli Jew, nor tribal Arab Muslim. It will be someone amenable to both sides, under the guise of "globalism".

Welcome to Christian Forums, since you seem to be new here.

I'm really not a Dispensationalist. I did start off quoting Thomas Ice, who is a well known Dispensationalist. I quoted Ice to make the point that not all Dispensationalists think that the coming Antichrist will be a Jew. I did a thread critical of Dispensationalism late last year.

I don't claim to know what program an Antichrist would claim to support. What is clear is that he is against God.

One of the recurring criticisms of Dispensationalists and other end-time theorists is that their thinking seems to be more political than religious. Dispensationalists seem to see the coming Antichrist as another Lenin, for instance. You would expect them to put more emphasis on religious ideas.

 

[Dale]

The False prophet comes out of the sea accoring to John's take of Daniel in Revelation 13. The AC is the image of the FP. Satan is the power broker coming out of the land or standing on the seashore "pulling" the FP into the 21st century.

Welcome to Christian Forums, since you are relatively new here.

You are correct that the dragon, which obviously stands for Satan, is pictured standing on the shore as the Beast emerges. We do need to distinguish between the first Beast and the second Beast. The first Beast is the one interpreted to be the Antichrist and the second is the False Prophet.

The first Beast emerges from the sea. As I pointed out in the OP, the sea symbolizes gentile nations, or non-Jewish nations, in many places in the Bible. The first Beast, with multiple heads, must be a gentile, of non-Jewish background. The second Beast emerges from the land, in Revelation 13:11-12. It is possible that the second Beast is of Jewish background.

 

[Dale]

Have a read of this from one of my Bible commentaries.

Daniel 9:1-27
IX. DANIEL'S VISION OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF GENTILE SUPREMACY (Chap. 9)

9:1, 2 This chapter takes place during the reign of Darius the Mede. By studying the book of Jeremiah, Daniel realized that the seventy years of captivity were almost at an end.

9:3-19 He confessed his sins and the sins of his people (he used the word our) and asked the Lord to fulfill His promises concerning Jerusalem and the people of Judah. In answer to his prayers God granted the prophet the very important revelation of the "seventy weeks," which has been called "the backbone of Bible prophecy."

Daniel's petitions were based on the character of God (His greatness, awesomeness, faithfulness, righteousness, forgiveness, mercies) and on His interests (Your people, Your city, Your holy mountain, Your sanctuary).

9:20-23 While he was . . . praying, Gabriel, being caused to fly swiftly, reached Daniel about the time of the evening sacrifice. He told him that he was greatly beloved, a tremendous tribute, coming as it did from God Himself. He then gave him an outline of the future history of the Jewish nation under the figure of seventy weeks. Each "week" represents seven years. Since the prophecy is so crucial to understanding God's program, we will examine it phrase by phrase.

9:24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem). The historical fulfillment of the first part of the prophecy shows that the weeks are weeks of years. Thus seventy weeks equal 490 years. We will see that the seventy weeks are divided into seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks, and then, after a time gap, one final week. At the end of these seventy weeks, the following six things will happen:

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins. While this may refer in a general sense to all Israel's sinful ways, it has special reference to the nation's rejection of the Messiah. At the Second Advent of Christ, a remnant will turn to Him in faith and the nation's transgression and sins will be forgiven.

To make reconciliation for iniquity. The basis for reconciliation was laid at Calvary, but this refers to the time, still future, when the believing portion of the nation of Israel will come into the benefit and enjoyment of the finished work of Christ.

To bring in everlasting righteousness. This, too, points forward to the Second Advent and the Millennium, when the King will reign in righteousness. It is everlasting righteousness in the sense that it will continue on into the eternal state.

To seal up vision and prophecy. The main body of OT prophecy centers on the glorious Return of Christ to earth, and His subsequent kingdom. Therefore, the bulk of prophecies will be fulfilled at the end of the seventy weeks.

And to anoint the Most Holy Place. At the beginning of the thousand-year reign, the temple described in Ezekiel 40-44 will be anointed or consecrated in Jerusalem. The glory will return in the Person of the Lord (Eze_43:1-5).

9:25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. (Neh_2:1-8).

Until Messiah the Prince. This refers not merely to the First Advent of Christ, but more particularly to His death (see v. 26a).

There shall be seven weeks (forty-nine years) and sixty-two weeks (434 years). The sixty-nine weeks are divided into two periods, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

The city shall be built again, with plaza and moat, even in troublesome times. Jerusalem would be rebuilt (during the first seven weeks) with public square and protective channel, but not without opposition and turmoil.

9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks—that is, after the sixty-two week portion of time, which is really at the end of the sixty-ninth week,

The Messiah shall be cut off. Here we have an unmistakable reference to the Savior's death on the cross. A century ago in his book The Coming Prince, Sir Robert Anderson gave detailed calculations of the sixty-nine weeks, using "prophetic years," allowing for leap years, errors in the calendar, the change from B.C. to A.D., etc., and figured that the sixty-nine weeks ended on the very day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, five days before his death.
But not for Himself, or literally and have nothing. This may mean that He had received nothing from the nation of Israel, to which He had come. Or it may mean that He died without apparent posterity (Isa_53:8). Or it may be a general statement of His utter poverty; He left nothing but the clothes that He wore.

And the people of the prince who is to come. This prince who is to come is the head of the revived Roman Empire, identified by some as the Antichrist. He will come to power during the Tribulation. His people, of course, are the Romans. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Romans, under Titus, destroyed Jerusalem and its magnificent gold-trimmed white marble temple in A.D. 70.

The end of it shall be with a flood. The city was leveled as if by a flood. Not one stone of the temple, for instance, was left on another. Titus forbade his soldiers to put Herod's temple to the torch, but in order to get the gold they disobeyed, thus melting down the gold. To retrieve the melted gold successfully from between the stones they had to pry loose the great stones, thus fulfilling Christ's words in Mat_24:1-2, as well as Daniel's prophecy.

And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.

9:27 We now come to the seventieth week. As mentioned previously, there is a time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. This parenthetical period is the Church Age, which extends from Pentecost to the Rapture. It is never mentioned specifically in the OT; it was a secret hidden in God from the foundation of the world but revealed by the apostles and prophets of the NT period.

However, the principle of a gap is nicely illustrated by our Lord in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luk_4:18-19). Jesus quoted Isa_61:1, Isa_61:2 a but cut it short at "the acceptable year of the LORD" (His First Advent), and left off the judgment of His Second Advent: "and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isa_61:2 b). In between was to occur the whole Church Age.

Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period). It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.

But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Mat_24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.

Shall be one who makes desolate. He will persecute and destroy those who refuse to worship the image.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Terrible persecution of the Jews will continue for the last half of the seventieth week, a period known as the Great Tribulation. Then the Roman prince, "the one who makes desolate," will himself be destroyed, as decreed by God, by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev_19:20).

(Source, "The Believers Bible.")

1an, welcome, since you are fairly new to Christian Forums.

Apparently you agree that the coming Antichrist is not a Jew or an Israeli, since you see this person as a Prince of Rome.

A couple of things puzzle me in the text that you apparently quoted. The author sees the European Union as a revived Roman Empire, so that an EU leader would be the "Prince of Rome." Dispensationalists typically see it that way. One thing that concerns me is that Rome is not the capital of the EU. Dispensationalists don't seem to realize that. The capital of the EU is Brussels, Belgium. Some sources point out that most of the EU bureaucracy is in Brussels but some offices are also in Strasbourg, France. Either way, the capital of the EU is not Rome, but Brussels, so it isn't obvious that an EU leader, or dictator, will be a Prince of Rome.

The author mentions the Roman general Titus as an antichrist-type figure because he lead the army that destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. From the history I've read, Titus had orders to destroy Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple in retaliation for being a troublesome province. Titus actually sympathized with the Jews. Instead of carrying out his orders, he found an issue (as we would say) and delayed, sending to Rome for instructions. Given the harshness of discipline in the Roman army, Titus put his life on the line in an attempt to dissuade his superiors. In the end it did no good. Titus was ordered to destroy Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple and this time he complied. This doesn't make Titus an antichrist-type figure.

 

[Dale]

Have a read of this from one of my Bible commentaries.

Daniel 9:1-27
IX. DANIEL'S VISION OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF GENTILE SUPREMACY (Chap. 9)

9:1, 2 This chapter takes place during the reign of Darius the Mede. By studying the book of Jeremiah, Daniel realized that the seventy years of captivity were almost at an end.

9:3-19 He confessed his sins and the sins of his people (he used the word our) and asked the Lord to fulfill His promises concerning Jerusalem and the people of Judah. In answer to his prayers God granted the prophet the very important revelation of the "seventy weeks," which has been called "the backbone of Bible prophecy."

Daniel's petitions were based on the character of God (His greatness, awesomeness, faithfulness, righteousness, forgiveness, mercies) and on His interests (Your people, Your city, Your holy mountain, Your sanctuary).

9:20-23 While he was . . . praying, Gabriel, being caused to fly swiftly, reached Daniel about the time of the evening sacrifice. He told him that he was greatly beloved, a tremendous tribute, coming as it did from God Himself. He then gave him an outline of the future history of the Jewish nation under the figure of seventy weeks. Each "week" represents seven years. Since the prophecy is so crucial to understanding God's program, we will examine it phrase by phrase.

9:24 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem). The historical fulfillment of the first part of the prophecy shows that the weeks are weeks of years. Thus seventy weeks equal 490 years. We will see that the seventy weeks are divided into seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks, and then, after a time gap, one final week. At the end of these seventy weeks, the following six things will happen:

To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins. While this may refer in a general sense to all Israel's sinful ways, it has special reference to the nation's rejection of the Messiah. At the Second Advent of Christ, a remnant will turn to Him in faith and the nation's transgression and sins will be forgiven.

To make reconciliation for iniquity. The basis for reconciliation was laid at Calvary, but this refers to the time, still future, when the believing portion of the nation of Israel will come into the benefit and enjoyment of the finished work of Christ.

To bring in everlasting righteousness. This, too, points forward to the Second Advent and the Millennium, when the King will reign in righteousness. It is everlasting righteousness in the sense that it will continue on into the eternal state.

To seal up vision and prophecy. The main body of OT prophecy centers on the glorious Return of Christ to earth, and His subsequent kingdom. Therefore, the bulk of prophecies will be fulfilled at the end of the seventy weeks.

And to anoint the Most Holy Place. At the beginning of the thousand-year reign, the temple described in Ezekiel 40-44 will be anointed or consecrated in Jerusalem. The glory will return in the Person of the Lord (Eze_43:1-5).

9:25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. (Neh_2:1-8).

Until Messiah the Prince. This refers not merely to the First Advent of Christ, but more particularly to His death (see v. 26a).

There shall be seven weeks (forty-nine years) and sixty-two weeks (434 years). The sixty-nine weeks are divided into two periods, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

The city shall be built again, with plaza and moat, even in troublesome times. Jerusalem would be rebuilt (during the first seven weeks) with public square and protective channel, but not without opposition and turmoil.

9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks—that is, after the sixty-two week portion of time, which is really at the end of the sixty-ninth week,

The Messiah shall be cut off. Here we have an unmistakable reference to the Savior's death on the cross. A century ago in his book The Coming Prince, Sir Robert Anderson gave detailed calculations of the sixty-nine weeks, using "prophetic years," allowing for leap years, errors in the calendar, the change from B.C. to A.D., etc., and figured that the sixty-nine weeks ended on the very day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, five days before his death.
But not for Himself, or literally and have nothing. This may mean that He had received nothing from the nation of Israel, to which He had come. Or it may mean that He died without apparent posterity (Isa_53:8). Or it may be a general statement of His utter poverty; He left nothing but the clothes that He wore.

And the people of the prince who is to come. This prince who is to come is the head of the revived Roman Empire, identified by some as the Antichrist. He will come to power during the Tribulation. His people, of course, are the Romans. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Romans, under Titus, destroyed Jerusalem and its magnificent gold-trimmed white marble temple in A.D. 70.

The end of it shall be with a flood. The city was leveled as if by a flood. Not one stone of the temple, for instance, was left on another. Titus forbade his soldiers to put Herod's temple to the torch, but in order to get the gold they disobeyed, thus melting down the gold. To retrieve the melted gold successfully from between the stones they had to pry loose the great stones, thus fulfilling Christ's words in Mat_24:1-2, as well as Daniel's prophecy.

And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.

9:27 We now come to the seventieth week. As mentioned previously, there is a time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. This parenthetical period is the Church Age, which extends from Pentecost to the Rapture. It is never mentioned specifically in the OT; it was a secret hidden in God from the foundation of the world but revealed by the apostles and prophets of the NT period.

However, the principle of a gap is nicely illustrated by our Lord in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luk_4:18-19). Jesus quoted Isa_61:1, Isa_61:2 a but cut it short at "the acceptable year of the LORD" (His First Advent), and left off the judgment of His Second Advent: "and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isa_61:2 b). In between was to occur the whole Church Age.

Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period). It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.

But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Mat_24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.

Shall be one who makes desolate. He will persecute and destroy those who refuse to worship the image.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Terrible persecution of the Jews will continue for the last half of the seventieth week, a period known as the Great Tribulation. Then the Roman prince, "the one who makes desolate," will himself be destroyed, as decreed by God, by being cast into the lake of fire (Rev_19:20).

(Source, "The Believers Bible.")

It is my understanding that God was finished with the Jewish Temple after the crucifixion. That is why the veil of the Temple was ripped in two, desecrating the Holy of Holies, at the time of Christ's death.



Quoted by 1an: << But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Mat_24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshiped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple. >>



This assumes that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt. As I have said in the past, this is much more unlikely than many Christians have been led to believe. It is not needed to fulfill prophecy.

What is the abomination that Jesus was talking about?

The famous commentator John Gill thought it was the Roman army when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

From John Gill's commentary on Matthew 24:15:

<< When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
&c.] From signs, Christ proceeds to the immediate cause of the destruction of Jerusalem; which was, "the abomination of desolation", or the desolating abomination; or that abominable thing, which threatened and brought desolation upon the city, temple, and nation: by which is meant, not any statue placed in the temple by the Romans, or their order; not the golden eagle which Herod set upon the temple gate, for that was before Christ said these words; nor the image of Tiberius Caesar, which Pilate is said to bring into the temple; for this, if true, must be about this time; whereas Christ cannot be thought to refer to anything so near at hand; much less the statue of Adrian, set in the most holy place, which was an hundred and thirty years and upwards, after the destruction of the city and temple; nor the statue of Titus, who destroyed both, which does not appear: ever to be set up, or attempted; nor of Caligula, which, though ordered, was prevented being placed there: but the Roman army is designed; see ( Luke 21:20 ) which was the (Mmvm Myuwqv Pnk) , "the wing", or "army of abominations making desolate", ( Daniel 9:27 ) . Armies are called wings, ( Isaiah 8:8 ) and the Roman armies were desolating ones to the Jews, and to whom they were an abomination; not only because they consisted of Heathen men, and uncircumcised persons, but chiefly because of the images of their gods, which were upon their ensigns: for images and idols were always an abomination to them ...

Link
Matthew 24:15 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

 

[Timtofly]

Welcome to Christian Forums, since you are relatively new here.

You are correct that the dragon, which obviously stands for Satan, is pictured standing on the shore as the Beast emerges. We do need to distinguish between the first Beast and the second Beast. The first Beast is the one interpreted to be the Antichrist and the second is the False Prophet.

The first Beast emerges from the sea. As I pointed out in the OP, the sea symbolizes gentile nations, or non-Jewish nations, in many places in the Bible. The first Beast, with multiple heads, must be a gentile, of non-Jewish background. The second Beast emerges from the land, in Revelation 13:11-12. It is possible that the second Beast is of Jewish background.

Thank you for the reply. That the pit was opened in the 5th Trumpet does not mean Satan had to open his door, but it does seem to imply coming out of the earth would be understood by those seeing him come out of the open door, they would understand who he was. So in a few verses we see the dragon waiting for the FP to arrive, through the connection of John using Daniel's beast.

The one that produced the first Greek king who also placed an image and introduced an AoD onto the Jewish people via their temple. Also because the FP is mentioned later, but John does not use the term antichrist once in Revelation. Not that John is lacking in knowing an antichrist. His other letters mentions many antichrist.

To a few verses later the beast coming out of the pit. Now in between we see the dragon helps the first beast. What is the reason behind dropping the name dragon after using it twice?

My take is the dragon appears first since the pit was opened first. There are Thunders that John could not reveal. Perhaps the dragon was more involved. Chapter 12 goes back into history, so standing by the seashore does not have to be right before nor right after the woman is protected. Nor do we have to wait till the 42 months to introduce the FP. It seems the 42 months start at the moment the saints are overcome.

Jesus Christ and the saints are told by God to vacate earth, and then God allows Satan 42 months of unrestricted authority. Only two human male witnesses are a thorn in his side. It is then the true deception side of Satan is revealed, and he is allowed to make an image in the likeness of the FP. He is allowed to breath life into that image. He is allowed his own Messiah, the AC. The image is not the FP. Satan is not the FP. Only the first beast from Daniel's prophecy can be the FP.

John never calls the image an Antichrist. It is not even human. It is a false Messiah though. Later it is the beast that gets destroyed with the FP at the battle of Armageddon and thrown into the lake of fire. Then Satan is once more the dragon bound for 1000 years. The beast from out of the earth does still speak with the voice of a dragon. The beast may have a human form with two horns like a lamb. The form he used to deceive the nations for the last 2500 years.