If Peter wasn't the first pope, who was?

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,688
55
USA
✟676,606.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If you didn't care, why bother. Of course, Christ is the rock, but he's also the Lamb, the Alpha and Omega, and other things. But Christ named Simon bar Jonah Peter, which means Rock, and told him "Upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.".

Your absolutely ignoring why Christ said that in the first place. Your taking a response to a revelation from God, and misinterpreting it...

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

That is the foundation, that is the teaching upon which the gates of hell cannot prevail... not a man. Foundation is the teaching of who Christ is, taught us by revelation from God, brought forward throughout history through the testimony of the Apostles, to our time... that is our foundation. Not Peter the Apostle, the man, but the revelation of God, given to God's people.

That revelation is our foundation, with Christ as our head through the testimony of the Holy Spirit, the seal of all believers. Brought forward in time via the Apostles, who gave us their testimony, of what they witnessed and did through the power of God...

This testimony cannot be drowned out or replaced by any declaration of a man taking the place of Christ in His church. As Jesus said, the gates of hell can never prevail. The truth cannot be hidden, or locked away...
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Victor in Christ

Jehovah Tsidkenu
Jun 9, 2020
1,151
439
British Isles
✟17,662.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I disagree that the disciples became apostles at Pentecost. Scripture records "Peter and the other apostles" many times. And then there were disciples, who were not the core group of 12.

When your talking about the disciples who would depart, they couldn't believe Christ was the spiritual Messiah who would deliver them from this earth. They thought Christ was a physical messiah to deliver them from their Roman oppressors. This was the thinking of the Jews, that they must always have a physical David, Joshua, etc to deliver them from a pagan nation.

Christ had his chosen disciples who were gathered in the upper room discourse when the Holy spirit came upon them. Christ's chosen disciples knew that his Father's kingdom didn't belong in this world, but in the new heavens and the new Earth.

God Bless
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Your absolutely ignoring why Christ said that in the first place. Your taking a response to a revelation from God, and misinterpreting it...

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

That is the foundation, that is the teaching upon which the gates of hell cannot prevail... not a man. Foundation is the teaching of who Christ is, taught us by revelation from God, brought forward throughout history through the testimony of the Apostles, to our time... that is our foundation. Not Peter the Apostle, the man, but the revelation of God, given to God's people.

That revelation is our foundation, with Christ as our head through the testimony of the Holy Spirit, the seal of all believers. Brought forward in time via the Apostles, who gave us their testimony, of what they witnessed and did through the power of God...

This testimony cannot be drowned out or replaced by any declaration of a man taking the place of Christ in His church. As Jesus said, the gates of hell can never prevail. The truth cannot be hidden, or locked away...
Well, no.

Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi and he asked his disciples,

Jesus went to Caesarea Philippi and asked His disciples a question. Now, the way it is phrased, it almost sounds as though Jesus went to Caesarea Philippi EXPRESSLY to ask the question which He asked. But even more, to make the specific statement which He made.

I love to read Biblical commentaries because, I personally, have never been outside the U.S. But Biblical commentaries can tell you so much about the context in which the Scriptures were written. This one, I learned from reading one of Scott Hahn's books. Caesarea Philippi is a very special place.

In the time of Jesus, a river flowed through this area and went into a cave, a hole in a huge rock. It was the belief of the Romans that this cave was the entrance into hell. On the top of this rock, the Romans had constructed a temple, in our terms, a church to one of their gods.

And this sets up the rest of this Gospel.

"Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

Jesus asked, "who do the people of Israel say that I am?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah,still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

They answered what they had overheard the people saying. Some thought that Jesus was John the Baptist. We recently saw that Herod thought that Jesus was the reincarnation of John the Baptist. The disciples said that other people thought He was the second coming of Elijah, one of the greatest Old Covenant prophets.

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

But Jesus was just warming up. He puts them on the spot with the next question. "Who DO YOU, my students whom I have been guiding for at least two years now. Who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter said in reply,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And this is why St. Peter is one of my most beloved Saints. There is no indication in this Gospel that he hesitated even one little bit. "You are the Son of God who is to come into the world!"

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

And Jesus says to him, "you are right. But it isn't because you are so brilliant. You can only know this if you are given the inspiration from my Father in heaven."

And so I say to you, you are Peter,and upon this rock I will build my Church,

"And now, since you have correctly revealed who I am, I will tell you who you are. You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church."

Right here, think back on where they are standing. As Jesus says these words, I envision that His arms sweep out to point towards that huge rock in the horizon and the temple that sits on top. But that is a Pagan church on top of that rock and that is a place where idolatry and orgies regularly take place. Therefore, hell has prevailed upon that church. Therefore, Jesus continues:

and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus then gives St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven. Essentially saying that St. Peter will have the power and authority to save people's souls.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
When your talking about the disciples who would depart, they couldn't believe Christ was the spiritual Messiah who would deliver them from this earth. They thought Christ was a physical messiah to deliver them from their Roman oppressors. This was the thinking of the Jews, that they must always have a physical David, Joshua, etc to deliver them from a pagan nation.
Well, that was the subject of the parable of the sower. Sometimes the seeds landed on rocky ground, withered and died. There were also those who rejected Him after he told them that, in order to have life, they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Christ had his chosen disciples who were gathered in the upper room discourse when the Holy spirit came upon them. Christ's chosen disciples knew that his Father's kingdom didn't belong in this world, but in the new heavens and the new Earth.

God Bless
Those were the apostles.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,959
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Jesus Christ never authorized the office of Pope .He told us he would send the comforter the Holy Spirit which bloweth where it listeth . It can't be held in any man made office especially one that goes by succession . When he spoke of Peter he was speaking of everyone that sees the Christ when he is before them .Than Jesus also said," Get thee behind me Satan " cause Peter failed to understand the second challenge of Christ that the Christ will never ever conform to man made ideas to how the Christ should be or do.
We need to remember that this is the Christian History forum. The question is about the first person to have the position of Pope as we know that office. It isn't whether or not we think the idea of a pope is right or wrong.
When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys of the kingdom, Jesus used words strikingly paralleling Isaiah 22. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, not to any other Apostle.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys of the kingdom, Jesus used words strikingly paralleling Isaiah 22. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, not to any other Apostle.

That argument is a standard among Catholics, it seems, but the comparison does not work.

For one thing, it is NOT what you said about "keys" being given. There is no "striking" similarity. In one case, it's keys and in the other it's key (in the singular).

For another, the OT conferral was about a political or administrative position, not at all like the religious position that the Pope is believed to occupy as supreme head of the visible church of Christ on Earth.

And for still another--a minor point, I agree--there was no such position as "prime minister" until the 18th century AD.

All that aside, if we were to agree that Peter was the first Pope, you would agree that the concept includes the idea of Apostolic Succession, of an unbroken line of bishops of Rome, the Popes, from then to the present. That is certainly the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church. Yet the man considered to be Peter's successor by the RCC, Linus, was not made a bishop by Peter or anyone else and was not even in Rome at the time of Peter's passing.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Is there proof, one way or the other, that Peter was the actual first Pope?
No, there is only the interpretation placed on Jesus' words by later bishops of Rome (and of course also their supporters).

There is evidence of the Diocese of Rome being influential in Church affairs, and its bishop along with that, but there are a number of reasons for that situation, not including anything about such a position as that of a "Pope."
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys of the kingdom, Jesus used words strikingly paralleling Isaiah 22. In Isaiah, the king gives the keys of the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, not to any other Apostle.
If this is true, why wasn't Peter the first authority in the first church? Why didn't Peter write anything but a few letters in the New Testament? Why is Paul featured so prominently but Peter less than John or Paul? How come no one in the early church recognized Peter as the only one who had this authority and no one else? How come they recognized others more often as having authority? History does not bear out this theology.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,959
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
That argument is a standard among Catholics, it seems, but the comparison does not work.

For one thing, it is NOT what you said about "keys" being given. There is no "striking" similarity. In one case, it's keys and in the other it's key (in the singular).

For another, the OT conferral was about a political or administrative position, not at all like the religious position that the Pope is believed to occupy as supreme head of the visible church of Christ on Earth.

And for still another--a minor point, I agree--there was no such position as "prime minister" until the 18th century AD.

All that aside, if we were to agree that Peter was the first Pope, you would agree that the concept includes the idea of Apostolic Succession, of an unbroken line of bishops of Rome, the Popes, from then to the present. That is certainly the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church. Yet the man considered to be Peter's successor by the RCC, Linus, was not made a bishop by Peter or anyone else and was not even in Rome at the time of Peter's passing.

Isaiah 22:20-22: In that day I will call my servant Eli'kim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the House of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Matthew 16:18-19: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,959
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Is there proof, one way or the other, that Peter was the actual first Pope?
Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible says that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,959
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for noticing my post, Valletta. I'll be happy to clarify anything in it that you didn't follow, as well as respond to anything that you may want to present as a counter-argument.
Thanks for noticing my post, Valletta. I'll be happy to clarify anything in it that you didn't follow, as well as respond to anything that you may want to present as a counter-argument.
Eliakim was one of many ministers, but was chosen by the king to be the prime minister when the office became vacant. The foreshadowed what was to come, Peter took on not only administration duties but
as the prime minister of Jesus, according to the words of Jesus, became a shepherd to the people.
 
Upvote 0

pescador

Wise old man
Supporter
Nov 29, 2011
8,530
4,776
✟498,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible says that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom.

But that doesn't make Peter the first Pope. Also, shortly after renamed Simon as Rock he also called him Satan. Matthew 16:23, "But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s". So, was Satan the first Pope?
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,424
11,978
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,262.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible says that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom.
Peter was a "type" of the Apostles, and by extension, the bishops. There was no Apostle over the Apostles just as there is no Bishop of Bishops. Every bishop who confesses Christ as the Son of the Living God is "Rock".

Just as each person of the Holy Trinity is fully God, each bishop surrounded by his flock is fully the Church. They are not part of the Church, they are the Church. It is exactly how each person of the Holy Trinity is not part of God, but rather each is fully God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Isaiah 22:20-22: In that day I will call my servant Eli'kim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the House of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Matthew 16:18-19: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I repeat, history does NOT show that Peter alone had the keys or that the church was built on Peter or that anyone accorded him more honor or authority than John, James or Paul.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But that doesn't make Peter the first Pope. Also, shortly after renamed Simon as Rock he also called him Satan. Matthew 16:23, "But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s". So, was Satan the first Pope?
Do the Catholics also believe that the words of “subsequent Popes” also fall into the category of Satan speaking through them as well as he did through Peter?
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible says that Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom.
He gave the keys to many. But let me ask you as a Catholic believer, what are these keys since only Popes have them in your view?
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eliakim was one of many ministers, but was chosen by the king to be the prime minister when the office became vacant. The foreshadowed what was to come, Peter took on not only administration duties but
as the prime minister of Jesus, according to the words of Jesus, became a shepherd to the people.
Except he was not the prime minister of the early church, James was. Later Paul and John were significant. Peter was not recognized as prime minister by anyone living when he did.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This one puzzles me, Peter and the Apostles excluding Paul spent most of the early years following Jesus ascension in Jerusalem. Peter did make his way to Rome eventually where he died a martyrs death but Rome has him there in like 33 AD. The Jerusalem Council was in 39AD, Peter is still in Jerusalem. He was obviously a leader among the Apostles and Jesus did focus on him somewhat. But I'm not sure you will get a presiding bishop or Pope from the New Testament witness. I certainly have some reservations about Peter being in Rome in 33 AD.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Agree with your post. What puzzles me more is that Peter was only an apostle to the Jews. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Rome was a Gentile city and Peter did not have any authority over Gentile Christians.

Peter travelled up to Antioch but was publicly rebuked by Paul.
So obviously, Paul did not view Peter as a pope. In fact, Paul accused Peter of attempting to make the Gentiles live like the Jews. There is no doubt that Paul saw Peter as, fallen from grace.

How Peter becomes a pope is beyond my understanding.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0