Do lies make us deserving of death and hell? And why or why not?

FireDragon76

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In the end God thinks lying deserves punishment in hell. I find this immoral. The punishment does not fit the crime.

Christians are not the only ones that believe liars will be punished in the next life, however. This is a common belief in many religions.

I can see how it is possible that wrongs such as lying are more deserving of severe punishments, since societies are dependent on truth-telling to be fair and just. More than just individuals are at stake. There is also the deeper spiritual issue of our orientation towards Truth or the Real itself - to murder the truth might be the worst sin of all.
 
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Par5

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I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.
If telling a lie is a prerequisite for going to hell, then we are all already booked in.
 
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Halbhh

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"Free will" refers to the scripturally fitting idea (that seems shown by the fact that in scripture we are repeatedly instructed to make certain choices).

The opposite of the free will idea is the 'double predestination' idea which many here and some minority of people hold. In the 'double predestination' idea, people can't help but make the choices that end up being the cause of them being condemned to the 'second death' (in hell), because they have no ability to make other choices, in that their choices are already seen ahead of time, and thus fixed, fated, predetermined.

But in free will, which most Christians believe a version of, we are able to make choices, such as choosing to be humble and repent of wrongdoing, and then become acceptable to God through faith in Christ, and be redeemed into eternal Life.

Regardless of all our previous wrongdoing!

(and we can be cleansed of wrongs and made righteous again each time we stumble if we merely confess/repent to our Lord ! (1rst John chapters 1 and 2))



What lie could a person tell that would leave them deserving death?
...
Currently, it is immoral for any God to punish people for any reason when that very God has not created an environment that justifies the "right" behavior. ...

As we can learn in the gospels, the way has been created for us to become righteous even in spite of our wrongdoing.

Through trusting in Jesus Christ, our Savior, Who redeems us from wrongs!
 
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Par5

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Christians are not the only ones that believe liars will be punished in the next life, however. This is a common belief in many religions.

I can see how it is possible that wrongs such as lying are more deserving of severe punishments, since societies are dependent on truth-telling to be fair and just. More than just individuals are at stake. There is also the deeper spiritual issue of our orientation towards Truth or the Real itself - to murder the truth might be the worst sin of all.
Anyone who says they have never told a lie is doing just that!
 
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Kylie

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Nazi tells a Jew to get on a train, and they won't be hurt.

I can't say I would argue with that. But by and large, that kind of lie tends to be rather rare. Most people have not told lies like this. So let's talk about the average person you'd walk past on your way down the street. What lie might they have told that would warrant a death sentence?
 
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com7fy8

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So let's talk about the average person you'd walk past on your way down the street. What lie might they have told that would warrant a death sentence?
If you limit the lies to ones which do not deserve death, then of course your examples are lies that are not worthy of death :) lolololololololol

But what about a relational lie? I mean, for a case > a guy marries a woman he does not even love. He charms her into being convinced he loves her . . . while he runs with other women. She goes on and on not being able to tell the difference between charm and love. And he is glad to keep her foolish enough so she can be so fooled. By wanting her to stay so easy to fool, is he loving her or hating her, or what? What does he deserve for this?

Is he murdering her soul, by so helping her to keep feeling that his charm is love? She could die and go into eternity, never knowing how real love is, because of how he has effected her. What is he worthy of?
 
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com7fy8

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Christians are not the only ones that believe liars will be punished in the next life, however. This is a common belief in many religions.

I can see how it is possible that wrongs such as lying are more deserving of severe punishments, since societies are dependent on truth-telling to be fair and just. More than just individuals are at stake.
I would say there are lies which are very obviously destructive . . . for example spreading a false report which ruins a person's reputation, maybe also a just cause of a person who has done nothing wrong and was helping people in great need.

It is said that stress at the time a pig is slaughtered can reduce the quality of the pig's meat. But if pig farmers treat pigs well so the pigs don't get stressed by knowing it is their time to be slaughtered, this is by actions lying to the piggies!!!!

There are other ways of lying by means of deceptive actions. In war, an invaded country's military one might bluff that they will do something so the enemy is fooled. And hunters can act in a way to trick their prey into feeling safe.

So, there is lying which is considered necessary for a society to function.
 
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Kylie

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If you limit the lies to ones which do not deserve death, then of course your examples are lies that are not worthy of death :) lolololololololol

Let's be clear about something. The OP was responding to a post in another thread in which Clizby WampusCat asked the OP if they believed CWC deserved to die for lying. Let me point out that the OP had claimed that God is justified in killing people for committing sin, and the Bible makes it clear that lying is a sin.

No limitations were ever placed on what kind of lie, as far as I know, so it would seem that the seriousness of the lie is not relevant. In other words, I would be just as deserving of death for saying that I hadn't cheated on my diet by eating some chocolate as the Nazi who told the Jew they would be safe if they got on the train.

So I shall ask again: What lies do regular people tell that justify God killing them?

But what about a relational lie? I mean, for a case > a guy marries a woman he does not even love. He charms her into being convinced he loves her . . . while he runs with other women. She goes on and on not being able to tell the difference between charm and love. And he is glad to keep her foolish enough so she can be so fooled. By wanting her to stay so easy to fool, is he loving her or hating her, or what? What does he deserve for this?

I can't say what he deserves, but I do think killing him for it is rather drastic.

Is he murdering her soul, by so helping her to keep feeling that his charm is love? She could die and go into eternity, never knowing how real love is, because of how he has effected her. What is he worthy of?

The question is, do you think such a man is worthy of death?
 
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Junia

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Anyone who says they have never told a lie is doing just that!
I
That is why Jesus paid the price of our sin by His death in the cross. If we believe in (lean heavily On this belief) we are justified. This means are sins are forgiven which is why Christians who are truly born of the spirit are saved from hell
 
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Junia

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Let's be clear about something. The OP was responding to a post in another thread in which Clizby WampusCat asked the OP if they believed CWC deserved to die for lying. Let me point out that the OP had claimed that God is justified in killing people for committing sin, and the Bible makes it clear that lying is a sin.

No limitations were ever placed on what kind of lie, as far as I know, so it would seem that the seriousness of the lie is not relevant. In other words, I would be just as deserving of death for saying that I hadn't cheated on my diet by eating some chocolate as the Nazi who told the Jew they would be safe if they got on the train.

So I shall ask again: What lies do regular people tell that justify God killing them?



I can't say what he deserves, but I do think killing him for it is rather drastic.



The question is, do you think such a man is worthy of death?

Tell God you lied ask Him to forgive you. Receive Jesus as your saviour and Lord...continue to have.Faith in Him and His finished works on the cross, His atonement for our sins and you wi l never have to go to hell
 
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com7fy8

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Let me point out that the OP had claimed that God is justified in killing people for committing sin, and the Bible makes it clear that lying is a sin.
I did not say for any and all sins . . . simply God is justified if He kills someone for a sin. But He decides if and when He does this. If you know of what happened with Ananias and Sapphira, this is an example of what could be involved > it was not just any regular way of lying.

One thing I consider with their lying > they were valuing money more than loving and honest communication with other people. So, it was a work of hatred. And hatred is murder (1 John 3:15), a capital offense, according to God's word. Betraying trust is an act of hate . . . a hate crime! They were isolating themselves with their conspiracy, not loving as family with God's children.

No limitations were ever placed on what kind of lie, as far as I know, so it would seem that the seriousness of the lie is not relevant.
I wrote as I did, as an open question. It was meant for how each person would go with it :)

Do I suppose that any and all lies are the same? no

Do I consider all sins to be the same in how bad they are? no

We can see in God's word how punishments are different for different sins.

But two people can do the same thing, and what they do can be very different because of how each person is and the person's motives and how the person is relating with others in doing the thing. You might lie to me about how old you are, but you are acting out of fear of what I will think, because you don't know me. Someone else might lie to me because the person despises me and does not consider me legitimate to be told the truth about something personal. So, your lie might be out of insecurity, while the other is lying out of hate.

In other words, I would be just as deserving of death for saying that I hadn't cheated on my diet by eating some chocolate as the Nazi who told the Jew they would be safe if they got on the train.
I never meant such a thing. I was just asking openly, so people would feel welcome to share what they have to say. And so, you have taken this the way you have, and I intended that you would be free to do so :)

And I say, no, lying about your diet is not the same as tricking a Jew into getting onto a death train. And, by the way, your value system which has you covering up about your diet is not the same as the value system which had Germans lie to Nazis about if they knew where any Jews were.

So I shall ask again: What lies do regular people tell that justify God killing them?
Well, like I have offered, if you draw the line between what you say are "regular" lies, and what is worthy of death, then none of your "regular" lies are worthy of death :) . . . of course.

But sin is not fair.

While you are lying about your diet, this might not be worthy of death, but it has you in distrust of the ones you lie to, and this could keep you from loving intimacy they are ready to share with you . . . possibly. And/or your lying could help to maintain you in weakness which also keeps you weak enough to keep on suffering in emotional trouble . . . possibly. So, in case you are relying on lying, instead of getting stronger in relating and emotionally, then the lying is not helping, is it? And the consequences in you are not fair. Not because God is unfair, but sin is unfair.
 
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com7fy8

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Is he murdering her soul, by so helping her to keep feeling that his charm is love? She could die and go into eternity, never knowing how real love is, because of how he has effected her. What is he worthy of?
The question is, do you think such a man is worthy of death?
Yes . . . but . . .

Jesus came in order to save us from our sins. Jesus suffered and died, instead of us, so we may be changed by God into persons who love, instead.

So, our selfish personalities, then, need to die, but then we become alive in love, like Christ, and love like Jesus has loved us.
 
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Junia

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I would say there are lies which are very obviously destructive . . . for example spreading a false report which ruins a person's reputation, maybe also a just cause of a person who has done nothing wrong and was helping people in great need.

It is said that stress at the time a pig is slaughtered can reduce the quality of the pig's meat. But if pig farmers treat pigs well so the pigs don't get stressed by knowing it is their time to be slaughtered, this is by actions lying to the piggies!!!!

There are other ways of lying by means of deceptive actions. In war, an invaded country's military one might bluff that they will do something so the enemy is fooled. And hunters can act in a way to trick their prey into feeling safe.

So, there is lying which is considered necessary for a society to function.
I


Re: lying to the piggies,.I don't think it is actually. Because the farmer isn't lying. He isn't feeling them the whole.truth.

Omitting the truth isn't always same as lying though would guess it depends on the motivation

Say a husband tells his wife and is getting fat and tells her to only eat tiny portions of food. Wife is hungry doing this and so busy snacks to hide and eat when husband not around. Now if husband was suspicious and asked her if she were sneaking food and she says "no" that is a sinful lie. But if husband doesn't ask her and wife continues to beat and say nothing, no sin has been committed as such. She hasn't lied.

In The Hidng Place , Corrie ten Boom wrote of her fears of having to lie to soldiers of they asked her if there were Jews in the house. She didn't want to lie. She asked God that she would not have to lie. Once when soldiers came she found that she wasn't asked if there were Jews there. so she didn't have to actually TELL a lie. Was she deceiving the officers? Yes but she wasn't lying.

The Bible doesn't say all deceivers go to hel l but am liars.... In English we are them as the same thing but in context how can they be??? I a! Guessing the original bible translation probably would have a root meaning of word which means a specific kind of lie? Just my speculation
 
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com7fy8

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Say a husband tells his wife and is getting fat and tells her to only eat tiny portions of food. Wife is hungry doing this and so busy snacks to hide and eat when husband not around. Now if husband was suspicious and asked her if she were sneaking food and she says "no" that is a sinful lie. But if husband doesn't ask her and wife continues to beat and say nothing, no sin has been committed as such. She hasn't lied.
I think there are times when I should tell the truth. So, if I don't, I am lying by omission. And my actions can be a lie.

But it can be not good to keep on calling attention to wrong things. Our attention needs to be with God and sharing with one another the way which is good.

So, I do not constantly call attention to my sin problems. And I pray about who I should trust with personal things about myself. Honesty, I have learned, includes being honest about what I should trust people to know about me.

Now . . . I am suspicious about how you have set up your standards. You say lying to your husband would be so very serious. Yet, you totally excuse yourself if you are sneaky but have not actually told a lie about it. My opinion is if you overly condemn the lying, this can help keep you weak in guilt and self condemnation, versus how you could become stronger so you are doing better. And if you totally excuse the sneakiness as not being a lie, this can help you to also stay weak so you keep on failing. Do you see what I am offering? You could be too hard on one thing, while being too soft on another. Instead become stronger so you trust him, so neither is as likely to happen, and we are love satisfied so we are not seeking comfort pleasure.
 
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Par5

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I think there are times when I should tell the truth. So, if I don't, I am lying by omission. And my actions can be a lie.

But it can be not good to keep on calling attention to wrong things. Our attention needs to be with God and sharing with one another the way which is good.

So, I do not constantly call attention to my sin problems. And I pray about who I should trust with personal things about myself. Honesty, I have learned, includes being honest about what I should trust people to know about me.

Now . . . I am suspicious about how you have set up your standards. You say lying to your husband would be so very serious. Yet, you totally excuse yourself if you are sneaky but have not actually told a lie about it. My opinion is if you overly condemn the lying, this can help keep you weak in guilt and self condemnation, versus how you could become stronger so you are doing better. And if you totally excuse the sneakiness as not being a lie, this can help you to also stay weak so you keep on failing. Do you see what I am offering? You could be too hard on one thing, while being too soft on another. Instead become stronger so you trust him, so neither is as likely to happen, and we are love satisfied so we are not seeking comfort pleasure.
If a wife asks her husband, "Does my backside look big in this?" then a lie might come in very handy don't you think? it could save a lot of grief!
 
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com7fy8

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@Par5 :) lolololololololol

I'll not try to tell another couple how to relate, in certain matters!

In my case, my companion does not ask; she tells.

My answer might be, we do not need to be worrying about how we look to people, but how we look to God. If it is an issue, then for our own good it could be wise to lose some weight.
 
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Caliban

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I mean this to be open, for what any of us have to say about this. I understand that any Christian Forums member is welcome to share here, about this.

I would say what matters is what causes a person to lie . . . not really just the lie itself.

I think there are people who are just insecure; so they lie because they don't realize people love them, and they fear being rejected. This is sad. They already are missing out on love, and this is worse than dying.

I have been through this. I have been simply too ashamed to tell something to people, even though I knew they love me and even would forgive me.

In such cases, I am not mainly concerned about what someone deserves. Because Jesus wants the person to turn to Him and trust Him and be forgiven. Jesus gets us forgiven, though we do not deserve this.
Of course not! I don't think anyone deserves to die at all--ever. Hell is just not even a plausible reality I consider.
 
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