Critical Race Theory

[JohnDB]

Since it was mentioned last night...

Anyone want to explain the merits and demerits of this thing?

I know what Trump said...

Why did he say it?

 

[royal priest]

This is explains it's history, development, and implications for today. Definitely worth the watch.

 

[Pommer]

This is explains it's history, development, and implications for today. Definitely worth the watch.

Just seeing the opening graphic there tells me that this isn’t a neutral treatise on the subject.
Pass.

 

[Speedwell]

Why did he say it?

Because CRT has become a dog whistle for his right-wing Evangelical supporters.

 

[JohnDB]

Because CRT has become a dog whistle for his right-wing Evangelical supporters.

Then please explain to us why you believe that Critical Race Theory is a good and valid viewpoint.

 

[Quartermaine]

Time gave a good write up of CRT and how the president used....or misused it in the debate

"Critical race theory offers a way of seeing the world that helps people recognize the effects of historical racism in modern American life. The intellectual movement behind the idea was started by legal scholars as a way to examine how laws and systems uphold and perpetuate inequality for traditionally marginalized groups."
“Critical race theory ultimately is calling for a society that is egalitarian, a society that is just, and a society that is inclusive, and in order to get there, we have to name the barriers to achieving a society that is inclusive. Our government at the moment is essentially afraid of addressing our history of inequality and if we can’t address it, then we can’t change it.”

 

[JohnDB]

Time gave a good write up of CRT and how the president used....or misused it in the debate

"Critical race theory offers a way of seeing the world that helps people recognize the effects of historical racism in modern American life. The intellectual movement behind the idea was started by legal scholars as a way to examine how laws and systems uphold and perpetuate inequality for traditionally marginalized groups."
“Critical race theory ultimately is calling for a society that is egalitarian, a society that is just, and a society that is inclusive, and in order to get there, we have to name the barriers to achieving a society that is inclusive. Our government at the moment is essentially afraid of addressing our history of inequality and if we can’t address it, then we can’t change it.”

Ok...
But then why did President Trump claim that it was racist and teaching people to hate America?

Surely there is something more that isn't being explained here.

 

[Quartermaine]

Ok...
But then why did President Trump claim that it was racist and teaching people to hate America?

Surely there is something more that isn't being explained here.

because that is a narrative he has been pushing for some time now

 

[Speedwell]

Then please explain to us why you believe that Critical Race Theory is a good and valid viewpoint.

It's not a "viewpoint," it's an analytical tool which many people find useful. It most certainly does not teach people to "hate our country" as Trump claims.

 

[Speedwell]

Ok...
But then why did President Trump claim that it was racist and teaching people to hate America?

Surely there is something more that isn't being explained here.

You would have to ask an Evangelical. I know that there are tedious theological discourses denouncing CRT as "unbiblical" and "unChristian" but I don't know if there is any meat on those bones. I suspect it has more to do with so many of Trump's Evangelical supporters being loyal sons and daughters of the Lost Cause.

 

[JohnDB]

From Wikipedia:
Critics of CRT, including Richard Posner and Alex Kozinski, take issue with its foundations in postmodernism and reliance on moral relativism, social constructionism, and other tenets contrary to classical liberalism.

Now that is beginning to make some sense as to why Trump would claim something.

Here's more:
Judge Richard Posner of the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has "label[ed] critical race theorists and postmodernists the 'lunatic core' of 'radical legal egalitarianism.'"[37] He wrote:[37]

What is most arresting about critical race theory is that…it turns its back on the Western tradition of rational inquiry, forswearing analysis for narrative. Rather than marshal logical arguments and empirical data, critical race theorists tell stories – fictional, science-fictional, quasi-fictional, autobiographical, anecdotal – designed to expose the pervasive and debilitating racism of America today. By repudiating reasoned argumentation, the storytellers reinforce stereotypes about the intellectual capacities of nonwhites.

So...that's more explanation than what has been given to date.

Jeffrey J. Pyle wrote in the Boston College Law Review:[40]

Critical race theorists attack the very foundations of the [classical] liberal legal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism and neutral principles of constitutional law. These liberal values, they allege, have no enduring basis in principle, but are mere social constructs calculated to legitimate white supremacy. The rule of law, according to critical race theorists, is a false promise of principled government, and they have lost patience with false promises.

That's pretty bad...
All this is reminisce of the Nazis attitude towards the Jews. That kind of hate speech is illegal in most countries around the world.

I've witnessed real racism...
And where a claim can be made for classism or that a caste based society is evolving in America it most certainly is not based upon racial lines. And I've witnessed plenty of people who have elevated themselves out of their caste in remarkable ways to remarkable ends.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Ok...
But then why did President Trump claim that it was racist and teaching people to hate America?

Surely there is something more that isn't being explained here.

Because Trump doesn't know what he's talking about and he's bought into a bunch of propaganda.

You would have to ask an Evangelical. I know that there are tedious theological discourses denouncing CRT as "unbiblical" and "unChristian" but I don't know if there is any meat on those bones.

IME, there really isn't any. I can appreciate the possibility that CRT may lead some to arrive at conclusions that don't necessarily line up with biblical teachings, but that can probably be said about most philosophies or systems. Capitalism, for example, has a ton of good practical uses, but also relies on selfishness and greed as some of its core mechanics and, in that, has the potential to be abused to a significant degree.

I suspect it has more to do with so many of Trump's Evangelical supporters being loyal sons and daughters of the Lost Cause.

yep.

 

[JohnDB]

You would have to ask an Evangelical. I know that there are tedious theological discourses denouncing CRT as "unbiblical" and "unChristian" but I don't know if there is any meat on those bones. I suspect it has more to do with so many of Trump's Evangelical supporters being loyal sons and daughters of the Lost Cause.

Well with the legal scholars reasoning listed in the post above I can see why evangelicals would hate this.

There's no "forgiveness" for being of a particular race.
There's no way not to be guilty.
When facts, merit, logic, and reason are thrown away in favor of race, anecdotal evidence and assumed guilt...it's Nazis all over again with different actors playing the parts.

 

[JohnDB]

Because Trump doesn't know what he's talking about and he's bought into a bunch of propaganda.

Actually he did know...
He just did a very poor job of explaining it.

It's just like the Nazis attitude but different people playing different roles.

There may be classism/caste based system in America...but it definitely has nothing to do with race.

 

[Belk]

Well with the legal scholars reasoning listed in the post above I can see why evangelicals would hate this.

There's no "forgiveness" for being of a particular race.
There's no way not to be guilty.
When facts, merit, logic, and reason are thrown away in favor of race, anecdotal evidence and assumed guilt...it's Nazis all over again with different actors playing the parts.

Yes, the Nazis were known for their efforts to use an analytical framework to get to an egalitarian society.

 

[iluvatar5150]

From Wikipedia:
Critics of CRT, including Richard Posner and Alex Kozinski, take issue with its foundations in postmodernism and reliance on moral relativism, social constructionism, and other tenets contrary to classical liberalism.

Now that is beginning to make some sense as to why Trump would claim something.

If those are the reasons why Trump (as opposed to Trump's handlers) has a problem with CRT, then he's even more cartoonishly hypocritical than I realized. The guy who lies constantly and invents his own reality takes issue with postmodernism? The guy who cheats everybody and on everybody complains about moral relativism? The guy who had storm troopers gas protesters so he could march to a church, and the guy who continually threatens to target states who don't abide by his legislative bidding is complaining about a philosophy that he thinks runs counter to classical liberalism?

Give me a break.

I've witnessed real racism...
And where a claim can be made for classism or that a caste based society is evolving in America it most certainly is not based upon racial lines.

If you're right, there ought to be data supporting your position. Got any?

And I've witnessed plenty of people who have elevated themselves out of their caste in remarkable ways to remarkable ends.

So?

 

[grasping the after wind]

It's not a "viewpoint," it's an analytical tool which many people find useful. It most certainly does not teach people to "hate our country" as Trump claims.

How does one use this tool?

 

[grasping the after wind]

because that is a narrative he has been pushing for some time now

Could you explain why this narrative is wrong?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Actually he did know...
He just did a very poor job of explaining it.

If you can't explain something, you probably don't understand it that well.

There may be classism/caste based system in America...but it definitely has nothing to do with race.

Do you think it ever had to do with race? If so, when do you think it stopped having to do with race?

 

[JohnDB]

Capitalism, for example, has a ton of good practical uses, but also relies on selfishness and greed as some of its core mechanics and, in that, has the potential to be abused to a significant degree.

"What the market will bear" pricing is exactly how the current tax rates are determined.

Those who make more are taxed more instead of a level flat tax across the board.

Retail prices are done in the EXACT same fashion. Captured markets are a prime example of this. When there's no where else to go to purchase food, clothing, or medecine the retailer can charge what the consumer can bear versus a fair mark-up.