Making America Great Again

durangodawood

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You can choose whether to buy something or not. I live pretty frugally, others don't. That's a choice. Now, try living without any income whatsoever....not gonna happen. As the line in the song goes "money isnt everything but id like to see you live with out it." This boils down to a matter of personal choice and force.
If you can live without buying stuff, then you can live without an income. They go hand in hand and are equally voluntary, and therefore so are any taxes on them
 
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98cwitr

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If you can live without buying stuff, then you can live without an income. They go hand in hand and are equally voluntary, and therefore so are any taxes on them

Esh well that's the problem because I can't. I make too much money to have the taxpayers afford me food and housing and medical care, but if I decide to attempt to live off welfare then my wife and children suffer. Don't wish to subject them to poverty. I'm sure many families, who make a lot less than I do, feel this way. Therefore, I would rather advocate for those who are having their income stripped from them by force while helping dismantle a system and only advocates for the poor to remain poor. Make sense?
 
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NxNW

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What do we do abut those whose alternative arrangements have failed? Let them starve?

That's exactly what was happening before SS came along.

I'd like more details on the opt in/out proposal. Given the fact that current workers pay for current retiree benefits, opting out now would cause immediate damage. How to provide the opt-out option and still fund current retirees?
 
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durangodawood

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Esh well that's the problem because I can't. I make too much money to have the taxpayers afford me food and housing and medical care, but if I decide to attempt to live off welfare then my wife and children suffer. Don't wish to subject them to poverty. I'm sure many families, who make a lot less than I do, feel this way. Therefore, I would rather advocate for those who are having their income stripped from them by force while helping dismantle a system and only advocates for the poor to remain poor. Make sense?
We were discussing the principle of involuntary taxation. These issues above are beside that point. Taxing spending is just as involuntary as taxing income.

As for what you did say... your point is to difficult to access. Like youre trying to make a point very obliquely or something.
 
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98cwitr

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We were discussing the principle of involuntary taxation. These issues above are beside that point. Taxing spending is just as involuntary as taxing income.

The proper adjective to use would be compulsory. You will pay a tax on something you buy unless you steal it. The option is to simply not obtain the product. With income, if you don't pay, then they're either going to dock your pay from your employer, or throw you in jail. That's the compulsion.

As for what you did say... your point is to difficult to access. Like youre trying to make a point very obliquely or something.

Sorry for that. I feel that I am being very clear.
 
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durangodawood

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The proper adjective to use would be compulsory. You will pay a tax on something you buy unless you steal it. The option is to simply not obtain the product. With income, if you don't pay, then they're either going to dock your pay from your employer, or throw you in jail. That's the compulsion.
If you can go through life without buy anything and paying the accompanying taxes, then you can just as well get by without an income.

So taxation on them is equally compulsory. The freedom to spend is no less real than the freedom to earn.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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The proper adjective to use would be compulsory. You will pay a tax on something you buy unless you steal it. The option is to simply not obtain the product.
...and what happens if you steal it? You get fined or thrown in jail. That's the compulsion.

With income, if you don't pay, then they're either going to dock your pay from your employer, or throw you in jail. That's the compulsion.
Or you could take the option to not have an income - or to ensure that your income is low enough to not be subject to taxation. It can be done, just as you can choose not to purchase anything.
 
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98cwitr

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...and what happens if you steal it? You get fined or thrown in jail. That's the compulsion.

Yeah, you're compelled (or deterred) from stealing other people's things...that's a fine point to make in this conversation actually. :D

Or you could take the option to not have an income - or to ensure that your income is low enough to not be subject to taxation. It can be done, just as you can choose not to purchase anything.

Asked and answered. We have wives and children to support.
 
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98cwitr

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If you can go through life without buy anything and paying the accompanying taxes, then you can just as well get by without an income.

That would only be true if I had the resources to make everything I need. I don't, hence we have markets.

So taxation on them is equally compulsory. The freedom to spend is no less real than the freedom to earn.

Not equal at all. If all I decide to buy is food and gas for a month, my taxation is low; next month I could choose differently. I cannot do that with the taxation on my income while maintaining employment.
 
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durangodawood

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Not equal at all. If all I decide to buy is food and gas for a month, my taxation is low; next month I could choose differently. I cannot do that with the taxation on my income while maintaining employment.
Delaying your compulsion doesnt make it not-compulsion.

I view participation in the marketplace as a freedom. Sounds like you dont.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Yeah, you're compelled (or deterred) from stealing other people's things...that's a fine point to make in this conversation actually. :D
Better example: technically, you're supposed to pay local sales taxes on all online purchases. If the merchant doesn't collect them, you're supposed to report them on your taxes and pay the sales tax then. If you don't, you could be audited and suffer the same penalties as not paying enough income tax. To be fair, the chances of getting caught for it are pretty low, but it is an item on your tax forms.
 
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SimplyMe

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That would only be true if I had the resources to make everything I need. I don't, hence we have markets.

Not equal at all. If all I decide to buy is food and gas for a month, my taxation is low; next month I could choose differently. I cannot do that with the taxation on my income while maintaining employment.

I personally don't have an issue with switching from an Income Tax to a VAT -- though there are other issues that come into play. First, I don't like the FAIR tax proposal, from the little I've seen. To begin with, the "rebate" bothers me as it will become a political "hot potato" -- I see it quickly becoming similar to "entitlements" today, that it will be branded as Welfare and we'll have plenty of politicians wanting to cut the benefits or completely remove them.

I do tend to like the idea of a VAT rather than income tax. I like how it would encourage saving. OTOH, this is precisely one of the issues -- it would, at least for the short term, damage the US economy. We are very proudly a nation of "consumers" and our economy is built off the idea of spending. While encouraging savings will help the country long term; between politicians (who don't want to be responsible for "recession") and our corporate culture, who don't want to hurt their bottom line, I can't see this type of proposal ever being successful under our current political structure.
 
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KCfromNC

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Where did someone say they were being indoctrinated? That was your claim.
Post 11 for starters. If you're really interested in discussing it I'll let you read through the rest of the thread to find the other examples.
 
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KCfromNC

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Not really. We have a voluntary choice who we do business with, but no matter where we go or what we do (other than stop earning an income completely) we are forced, under threat, to give (currently) a certain portion of our fruits to the state.
You could also move somewhere without a government if you don't like it. So lots of "freedom" to get away from taxes. I mean there are certain drawbacks, but hey, freedom (to have to hire a private security force, etc)!
 
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KCfromNC

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I'd like to frame your question please. Do you mean in regards to federal income taxes?

If so, this link is quite telling: Federal Budget Pie Charts

iu
Does it also have the chart showing the income distribution of US taxpayers? Because if not, you're being misled by that link.
 
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KCfromNC

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You can choose whether to buy something or not. I live pretty frugally, others don't. That's a choice. Now, try living without any income whatsoever....not gonna happen. As the line in the song goes "money isnt everything but id like to see you live with out it."

Looks like the claim is people have to earn money, and thus taxing income is slavery. But people can live without spending that money, somehow, therefore sales taxes are fine.

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but maybe someone else can figure it out.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Post 11 for starters. If you're really interested in discussing it I'll let you read through the rest of the thread to find the other examples.
They did not say indoctrination but I see your point. I don't think this way but I do hear it a lot. I push back against unsubstantiated claims like this against education. People need more education not less. And if they want to go to college there are plenty of conservative leaning colleges to go to. If you taught actual skepticism and reasoning skills to your kids you would not have to worry about the so called indoctrination by universities.
 
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