Making America Great Again

[durangodawood]

....we are forced, under threat, to give (currently) a certain portion of our fruits to the state.

Just like Jesus said we should.

 

[98cwitr]

Just like Jesus said we should.

Glad you brought this up. What happened if someone didn't pay the temple tax? As the tax was a half-shekel, how much was that worth? Was the tax implemented by the Romans, or by Moses?

What is the temple tax? | GotQuestions.org

I'm not advocating to break the law and not pay the tax, I'm advocating for changing the law so that the tax no longer exists.

 

[durangodawood]

Glad you brought this up. What happened if someone didn't pay the temple tax? As the tax was a half-shekel, how much was that worth?

What is the temple tax? | GotQuestions.org

I'm not advocating to break the law and not pay the tax, I'm advocating for changing the law so that the tax no longer exists.

Dont know. What happened?

Sounds like you want to "defund the police"..... and everything else.

 

[98cwitr]

Dont know. What happened?

Sounds like you want to "defund the police"..... and everything else.

Police are municipal. My entire conversation has been in the context of the federal government.

Also, Israel's king and his family was exempt from paying taxes, including the temple tax. Is that a system you wish to return to? If not, your entire framing of Jesus telling them that it was right to pay that tax is a non-sequitur, and has nothing to do with American income taxes at all; unless of course you want America to be a theocracy, which can be a topic for another thread.

 

[Nithavela]

I'd like to shrink A LOT of it, including the DoD budget but also have Medicare and SSI be opt-in/opt-out and gradually fade them out. That said, our preamble outlines that the purpose (original intent) of the federal government is to promote the General Welfare and provide for the national defense, so Constitutionally, having the budget for a sufficient military is one of the core purposes of the federal government, as well as arbitration between states. Now, I am aware the language changes in Article I Section 8, which also states "provide for the General Welfare" which of course will be debated ad nausem until we can have an amendment to specifically define, clearly, what that exactly means. So there's a contradiction in verbs within our Constitution. Anti-federalists such as myself will clearly side with the Preamble language whereas the federalists will side with Article I. So we're at an impasse.

The bottomline is that the welfare state, created by FDR's New Deal has shown to keep the poor in poverty while massively funding military operations, black budgets, and handing out tax dollars to large corporations under the guise of "providing for the General Welfare" but it's nothing more than legal bribery and quid pro quo.

We wouldn't care so much about who the President was if the office didn't wield such immense power. I just want us back to pre-New Deal days economically.

Hmhm. We've had 4 years of republicans leading the senate and presidency, and two of those years they had the house. Also, they greatly increased their influence in the judicial system, including the supreme court.

Is the government moving into the direction you outlined or away from it?

 

[durangodawood]

Police are municipal. My entire conversation has been in the context of the federal government.

Also, Israel's king and his family was exempt from paying taxes, including the temple tax. Is that a system you wish to return to?

What?.... is a fed govt less legit in principle that state or municipal? Right from the beginning the US Const gave congress the task of levying taxes. It also outlined a number of major fed govt responsibilities that dont come for free.

I'm not at all sure how my reasoning leads us to an ancient temple-tax model.

 

[98cwitr]

Hmhm. We've had 4 years of republicans leading the senate and presidency, and two of those years they had the house. Also, they greatly increased their influence in the judicial system, including the supreme court.

Is the government moving into the direction you outlined or away from it?

The GOP is full of big gov corporatists; it's why I'm not a card toting member.

 

[98cwitr]

What?.... is a fed govt less legit in principle that state or municipal?

My points have nothing to do with "legitimacy" but power.

Right from the beginning the US Const gave congress the task of levying taxes. It also outlined a number of major fed govt responsibilities that dont come for free.

From state coffers, sure. The Fed makes $56B a year in tariffs alone. Do you think that money is being wisely spent?

I'm not at all sure how my reasoning leads us to an ancient temple-tax model.

Then why bring up "an ancient temple-tax model?"

 

[durangodawood]

My points have nothing to do with "legitimacy" but power.

Congress has the power to levy taxes. Are you proposing we change that by constitutional amendment?

From state coffers, sure. The Fed makes $56B a year in tariffs alone. Do you think that money is being wisely spent?

There's loads of unwise govt spending, imo. But thats a different topic than the basic in principle power to levy taxes.

Then why bring up "an ancient temple-tax model?"

Not sure what the temple tax comparison is all about. My sense is Jesus said pay your taxes to the govt and get on with your life.

 

[98cwitr]

Congress has the power to levy taxes. Are you proposing we change that by constitutional amendment?

Sure, but by what means? I'm just calling for the repeal of the 16th amendment.

There's loads of unwise govt spending, imo. But thats a different topic than the basic in principle power to levy taxes.

Not the basic power, that's not what I'm advocating and I feel I've been clear in that: No compulsory taxation of individuals.

Not sure what the temple tax comparison is all about. My sense is Jesus said pay your taxes to the govt and get on with your life.

Again, did that tax go to Rome or the temple? Did Jesus tell us to aid the poor ourselves, or just have Rome do it for us?

 

[Belk]

Not really. We have a voluntary choice who we do business with, but no matter where we go or what we do (other than stop earning an income completely) we are forced, under threat, to give (currently) a certain portion of our fruits to the state.

You feel that having to pay taxes is the same as someone owning you as property?

 

[98cwitr]

You feel that having to pay taxes is the same as someone owning you as property?

Who is it that oppresses us (James 5)? Wealthy business owners who I can choose to never give a dime to, or politicians who raise our taxes and if we don't pay send us to jail? When we speak of the "rich" do we think CEOs or politicians? Again, who are the oppressors? I do not covet what CEO's have, I do feel the adverse effects of compulsory taxation, as do many.

 

[durangodawood]

Sure, but by what means? I'm just calling for the repeal of the 16th amendment.

Not the basic power, that's not what I'm advocating and I feel I've been clear in that: No compulsory taxation of individuals.

Somebody gets money taken from them in any tax regime. What other beings could possibly be generating wealth?

Again, did that tax go to Rome or the temple? Did Jesus tell us to aid the poor ourselves, or just have Rome do it for us?

I think Jesus was pretty non specific about what Rome should do with the tax it collects. I still dont get what the ancient temple tax has to do with this.

 

[Belk]

Who is it that oppresses us (James 5)? Wealthy business owners who I can choose to never give a dime to, or politicians who raise our taxes and if we don't pay send us to jail? When we speak of the "rich" do we think CEOs or politicians? Again, who are the oppressors? I do not covet what CEO's have, I do feel the adverse effects of compulsory taxation, as do many.

Thank you, but that does not answer my question. Do you feel that paying taxes is the same as your physical being being owned as property?

 

[98cwitr]

Somebody gets money taken from them in any tax regime. What other beings could possibly be generating wealth?

Tariffs and voluntary means of gaining capital. I think a good replacement for income taxation is the FairTax: Pass the FAIRtax | FAIRtax.org

I think Jesus was pretty non specific about what Rome should do with the tax it collects. I still dont get what the ancient temple tax has to do with this.

Because you broached the subject, brother.

 

[durangodawood]

Tariffs and voluntary means of gaining capital. I think a good replacement for income taxation is the FairTax: Pass the FAIRtax | FAIRtax.org

Because you broached the subject, brother.

Nothing voluntary about a sales tax ("fair tax"). Unless you consider participation in the free marketplace voluntary. Sure, "choose" to withdraw from commerce. By the same token you could "choose" to not have an income and call the income tax "voluntary".

And I dont think I brought up the temple tax. That wasnt the same thing as the tax Rome collected, was it?

 

[98cwitr]

Nothing voluntary about a sales tax ("fair tax"). Unless you consider participation in the free marketplace voluntary. Sure, "choose" to withdraw from commerce. By the same token you could "choose" to not have an income and call the income tax "voluntary".

You can choose whether to buy something or not. I live pretty frugally, others don't. That's a choice. Now, try living without any income whatsoever....not gonna happen. As the line in the song goes "money isnt everything but id like to see you live with out it." This boils down to a matter of personal choice and force.

And I dont think I brought up the temple tax. That wasnt the same thing as the tax Rome collected, was it?

Post #201 if i recall: Making America Great Again

Isn't that the context of Matthew 17? Or more likely you're referring to Luke 20?

 

[NxNW]

We wouldn't care so much about who the President was if the office didn't wield such immense power. I just want us back to pre-New Deal days economically.

Does that include abolishing Social Security?

 

[98cwitr]

Does that include abolishing Social Security?

opt-in/opt-out and let it die via attrition. Same with Medicare.

 

[Speedwell]

opt-in/opt-out and let it die via attrition. Same with Medicare.

What do we do abut those whose alternative arrangements have failed? Let them starve?