Deputies from Homeless Outreach Team Fatally Shoot Black Homeless Man During Struggle Over Jaywalkin

[April_Rose]

Here's what I think about it. The guy should have listened to the officers and not try to take control of their weapons,.. but the officers involved sort of overreacted as well.

 

[Annner]

Full headline:


Deputies from Homeless Outreach Team Fatally Shoot Black Homeless Man During Struggle Over Jaywalking Accusations

tulc(thought this was interesting)

Just read the article that said.....

OCSD Sgt. Dennis Breckner said that after “an altercation broke out,” two shots were fired.
(((Reinhold tried to gain control of one of the deputies’ guns.)))

People think they can endanger a policeman’s life and NOT get shot? Then they accuse the police saying, look what the cop did to me!

Thats what many of these scenarios have in common. I think its wise to wait and see what really took place and let the investigation reveal it. Then we will know for sure.

 

[axelthefox]

 

[April_Rose]

And once again race seems to be stuck into a thread where it has absolutely nothing to do with it. The guy could have been green or purple and he still would have been shot for trying to shoot a police officer.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

The guy could have been green or purple and he still would have been shot for trying to shoot a police officer.

I love how the homeless guy’s motives evolve.

First we have one sided account of the event - since the other side is conveniently dead - that he tried to grab a gun.


Now he is trying to already to shoot a police. Few more pages of this and the story will be that the homeless guy had a suicide vest in his home and was just going for the local kindergarten and these heroic officers prevented 40 children from being blown to bits.

Only facts that we can affirm are that two officers have a heated verbal exchange with a homeless guy after which they wrestle the guy to ground and 5 seconds later one officer shoots him.

You are naive if you don’t think those officers didn’t talk to their department lawyer before the body had cooled off.

 

[tulc]

(snip)
Only facts that we can affirm are that two officers have a heated verbal exchange with a homeless guy after which they wrestle the guy to ground and 5 seconds later one officer shoots him. (snip)

...all while they scream for the mics on their body cams: "He's going for your gun!".
followed no doubt in their report with the ever used: "we feared for our life!".
tulc( )

 

[Tom 1]

What happened to innocent before proven guilty?

You don’t seem to have any trouble blaming the guy who got shot for his own death.

 

[Tom 1]

And that's part of the problem. Homeless people are more likely to suffer mental illness. In fact, it's rare that a homeless individual doesn't suffer from mental illness.

I do think we as a nation need to be figuring out a real and workable plan to deal with the mentally ill outside of leaving them on their own and homeless.

Decades ago we used to institutionalize those with mental health issues that led people unable to care for themselves instead of letting them be homeless and uncared for.

These days, people see that sort of program to be too harsh so you almost never see institutions anymore for these people... but the homelessness problem among the mentally ill is such a huge problem that I almost think we need to go back to that, or figure out something better...

Because this is the type of thing that had we done more for this man than leave his mental health problems unaddressed and allow him to be homeless and alone would have never happened.

This adds nothing to the debate. He was shot for no reason - the problem is that he was shot, not that he was ill. There are homeless people with and without mental health issues all over the world, only in the US are they at risk of violence from the police.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This adds nothing to the debate. He was shot for no reason - the problem is that he was shot, not that he was ill. There are homeless people with and without mental health issues all over the world, only in the US are they at risk of violence from the police.

And only in the U.S. are the police at such high risk of violence from individuals just for doing their jobs.

I honestly don't think that if there hadn't been months of cops being assassinated or attempts on their lives just for wearing the uniform and all the cop hate going on this country this type of situation would have generally gone far better...

Now a guy refusing to cooperate and going for a cops gun isn't seen as anything but a threat, instead of a symptom of mental illness that might be better dealt with another way.

When you have everyone generally cooperating the odd guy really stands out as odd and ill... but when no one cooperates the odd guy with mental illness is just another job hazard that's endangering your life.

 

[Hazelelponi]

And those institutions had horrible track records of poor care and neglect. And I agree alot more needs to be done both for the homeless and the disable but those old institutions and the massive amount of negligent deaths is why they were shutdown.
And also I do believe those officers need to be fired if your on a "homeless outreach team" and can't handle a jaywalking homeless person escalating the situation the way they did throughout the video then they need be doing something else security guard maybe.

And your right, those institutions from what we know (or at least what's been romanticized of them in Hollywood horror, since they've not existed in my lifetime) did have horrible track records...

But I do think we can do better in our modern day, all the way around. What we are doing now is essentially nothing ..

Now we can deal far better with mental illness than we could back then in the first place... we just need a better environment so people are actually housed and getting the care they need.

I do agree with you, if this truly was a homeless outreach team they should have been better trained to deal with this homeless man... it seems they, themselves were far to jumpy to accommodate a man with mental illness from the start, although I see that as a symptom of the much larger problem of how cops are being treated by the population anymore, instead of the problem.

I do know factually that if I was a cop when all this nastiness started I would have long ago quit. I find it daily amazing that anyone is willing to put on the uniform today...

 

[Tom 1]

And only in the U.S. are the police at such high risk of violence from individuals just for doing their jobs.

I honestly don't think that if there hadn't been months of cops being assassinated or attempts on their lives just for wearing the uniform and all the cop hate going on this country this type of situation would have generally gone far better...

Now a guy refusing to cooperate and going for a cops gun isn't seen as anything but a threat, instead of a symptom of mental illness that might be better dealt with another way.

When you have everyone generally cooperating the odd guy really stands out as odd and ill... but when no one cooperates the odd guy with mental illness is just another job hazard that's endangering your life.

This is typical of the fantastical imagery associated with these kinds of events - you don’t appear to realise you are speaking from your own imagination. This person presented no threat. He was clearly unwell and had no idea who these characters telling him to sit on the ground were - it’s important to understand that anywhere else in the developed world telling a citizen to ‘get on the ground’ for jaywalking would be rightly met with complete outrage. The defence often offered for murder in these regularly occurring cases that ‘we attacked a citizen in the street. When that person tried to defend himself, we killed him’ would in any sane country be treated with derision. This is basic stuff - when people are attacked, they become defensive. When people are wrestled to the ground without provocation they fight back. The fight or flight response is not just a switch you can turn off or step back and be reasonable about. Police forces the world over recognise this and invest heavily in appropriate training to equip police officers to deal with high stress situations (not that jaywalking meets that definition). There are violent criminals the police have to deal with in every single country on the planet, only in the US are the cops actually expected to also act like murderous thugs.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This is basic stuff - when people are attacked, they become defensive.

He wasn't being "attacked"... he was being asked to comply with police requests. Your definition of the man being attacked is what was fantastical.

Pretty much everyone, even a foreigner who was here on his first day, can recognize a police officer.

Most mentally ill that aren't institutionalized, can still absolutely recognize a cop from a normal person.

I still believe it was mental illness that caused him to refuse to comply and talk with the police, but it doesn't mean i think the man didn't know they were cops.

I've dealt with homeless a lot having lived in bad parts of town in the past, and mentally ill or not they knew who the cops were..

And sadly, the people around the homeless know who they are, and know which ones are worse off than others and generally look out for them.

I used to buy coffee for a homeless man every morning, my husband bought him lunch every day and a friend of ours made sure he had clean clothes to put on .. His mental health issues were so severe he couldn't care for himself, but no state entity would care for him either.

Had I seen cops speaking to him I would have spoken with the police on scene to explain the mans mental health condition to him and give pointers on how to deal with him best. (And so would every business owner and person in that neighborhood have done the same, we all knew him well).

Leaves me wondering why this particular homeless man (the one killed in this encounter) had no one in the area looking out for him, yet everyone happy to stand around filming the encounter.

People in general need to do more for others, and stop all this nonsense based in their own hatred of police.

 

[Tom 1]

He wasn't being "attacked"... he was being asked to comply with police requests. Your definition of the man being attacked is what was fantastical.

Pretty much everyone, even a foreigner who was here on his first day, can recognize a police officer.

Most mentally ill that aren't institutionalized, can still absolutely recognize a cop from a normal person.

I still believe it was mental illness that caused him to refuse to comply and talk with the police, but it doesn't mean i think the man didn't know they were cops.

I've dealt with homeless a lot having lived in bad parts of town in the past, and mentally ill or not they knew who the cops were..

And sadly, the people around the homeless know who they are, and know which ones are worse off than others and generally look out for them.

I used to buy coffee for a homeless man every morning, my husband bought him lunch every day and a friend of ours made sure he had clean clothes to put on .. His mental health issues were so severe he couldn't care for himself, but no state entity would care for him either.

Had I seen cops speaking to him I would have spoken with the police on scene to explain the mans mental health condition to him and give pointers on how to deal with him best. (And so would every business owner and person in that neighborhood have done the same, we all knew him well).

Leaves me wondering why this particular homeless man had no one in the area looking out for him, yet everyone happy to stand around filming the encounter.

People in general need to do more, and stop all this nonsense based in their own hatred of police.

Wrestling someone to the ground is an attack. Manhandling someone who continually tells you not to touch him is assault, these are basic realities. Your general experience has no bearing on anything other than what you imagine someone was thinking, which is irrelevant. Have you read the article? The record of what this person said? It's quite evident from his words he had no idea what was going on, so you don't need to invent your own version in order to follow your brainwash program.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Wrestling someone to the ground is an attack. Manhandling someone who continually tells you not to touch him is assault, these are basic realities. Your general experience has no bearing on anything other than what you imagine someone was thinking, which is irrelevant. Have you read the article? The record of what this person said? It's quite evident from his words he had no idea what was going on, so you don't need to invent your own version in order to follow your brainwash program.

I read the article in its entirety etc. prior to ever replying...

As I've dealt with a lot of homeless, and spoken to cops and prison officials on these issues I feel well versed enough to speak on these issues, even not knowing the man myself.

You have to understand, our prison system serves as the "fall through the cracks" mental health institution today. When the man didn't and wouldn't comply, their job was then to arrest him so he might have a chance to get care for his illness and issues...

Him not complying is him not complying, but then at that point those cops had a job to do - to arrest him. In order to do that they do have to touch him, and it's not legally assault for a cop to arrest someone.

certainly, its ideal if the cops know how to encourage someone like that to comply willingly... but it wont always happen depending on the severity of the illness - even if you know all of that individuals proclivities.

 

[Tom 1]

I read the article in its entirety etc. prior to ever replying...

As I've dealt with a lot of homeless, and spoken to cops and prison officials on these issues I feel well versed enough to speak on these issues, even not knowing the man myself.

You have to understand, our prison system serves as the "fall through the cracks" mental health institution today. When the man didn't and wouldn't comply, their job was then to arrest him so he might have a chance to get care for his illness and issues...

Him not complying is him not complying, but then at that point those cops had a job to do - to arrest him. In order to do that they do have to touch him, and it's not legally assault for a cop to arrest someone.

certainly, its ideal if the cops know how to encourage someone like that to comply willingly... but it wont always happen depending on the severity of the illness - even if you know all of that individuals proclivities.

Sure, that’s the Hollywood version. The reality is a couple of thugs murdered a homeless guy for no good reason. If you had a good grasp of the broader issues, you would know that generalising disconnects you from reality. You end up thinking that what is in your head is real. As it happens I managed crisis services for years, in fact I was nominated for the PMs award for my work coordinating emergency responses to crisis scenarios. But that is neither here nor there - police services are not supposed to be killing people. The longer brainwashed US citizens who think they are living in a Hollywood movie blame the victims and apologise for the perpetrators, the worse it will get. Policing in your country urgently needs a complete overhaul, pretending the problems aren’t real only ensures a continuation and worsening of what is already a bad situation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The reality is a couple of thugs murdered a homeless guy for no good reason.

End of conversation...

Perhaps you need to get out more, work with these people and immerse yourself in caring for the homeless. You'd learn a lot from the experience.

 

[Tom 1]

End of conversation...

Perhaps you need to get out more, work with these people and immerse yourself in caring for the homeless. You'd learn a lot from the experience.

I’ve done plenty of that, which is why I don’t think they should be arbitrarily shot to death in the street, and why I don’t think anyone who murders some homeless guy for crossing the street ought to be defended at all costs.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I’ve done plenty of that, which is why I don’t think they should be arbitrarily shot to death in the street, and why I don’t think anyone who murders some homeless guy for crossing the street ought to be defended at all costs.

Prejudice is showing in your posts...

As a beside, I'm hard pressed to believe you've ever served even one day amongst the homeless, as you seem to have no concept of the interactions between the police and the homeless community.

The cops didn't just walk up to this man and put a bullet in his head. THAT is murder. Didn't happen.

They were attempting to arrest him and he went for one of their guns in the midst of him resisting arrest, while tragic, it's not murder.

Police have a job to do... it's not a pretty job, and it's definitely thankless, but they are given the authority to do it.

87 police were killed in the line of duty in 2018 (52 were shot to death) compared to the 9 unarmed black individuals that were killed by police in that same year.. yet all we hear is how police are murderers... yeah. Not. Sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes not the best decisions are made but it's clear when looking at the statistics that cops (in the main) aren't the evil murderers people like you make them out to be.

In my opinion, there's little to be gained in continuing this conversation, your posting indicates prejudice so no discussion can be had.

 

[Tom 1]

As a beside, I'm hard pressed to believe you've ever served even one day amongst the homeless, as you seem to have no concept of the interactions between the police and the homeless community.

You see? You think something random and imaginary, and immediately begin to believe it is true. This is a mode of thought that, going on posts on this thread and the acceptance of strange entities like Fox News as actually being on some way useful for understanding the world makes it hard not to conclude that at least some proportion of American conservatives simply lack the basic ability to think and evaluate actual real things.

They were attempting to arrest him and he went for one of their guns in the midst of him resisting arrest, while tragic, it's not murder.

For a start, there is no good reason to believe this is actually true, you simply take it on faith. More importantly, what this indicates is the underlying belief that the out of control behaviour of police officers over jaywalking - over jaywalking, think about it - is a blatantly obvious, 10 foot high sign in neon letters that something is seriously, fatally wrong with policing in the US. People like you ensure that will continue to be the case.

 

[Hazelelponi]

acceptance of strange entities like Fox News as actually being on some way useful

My facts came from NPR, not Fox:

More Police Officers Died From Gunfire Than Traffic Incidents In 2018, Report Says

Not "strange"

My opinions are my own, not "strange"...

This thread poses an issue: homeless man shot in altercation with police.

As we ALL know, who have ever once had interactions with the homeless, it's that the majority have serious mental health issues such they cannot manage life at the level of applying for assistance (SSD), both acquiring the medications they need as well as regularly taking them, keeping a roof over their head (goes back to being unable to deal with applying for assistance) etc etc.

This leaves them homeless and uncared for... and means their police interactions are by and large far higher in number than the regular population - many people regularly call the police on the homeless most especially when they are having an episode related to their mental health.

This leaves us with an opportunity to discuss what could have been done to achieve a better outcome than a dead homeless guy...

My first thought is to not leave the homeless alone, homeless and uncared for - all the way around...

That would significantly decrease their interactions with police as a whole, and be something that is actually helpful not "strange".

Demonizing police, which seems to be your only goal... is simply hatefilled left-wing rhetoric and is unhelpful all the way around.

Good day. I'm now putting you on ignore, since you declined to end this line of non-discussion.

There was a day people would discuss real issues like this one with love and care and an eye toward solutions... apparently that day is long gone.