Some claim Jesus had faith

[dms1972]

Then how do you explain John 14:12?

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

There were glimpses in the OT. God parted the Red Sea through Moses and used Elijah to bring a young man back from the dead.

Some commentators say it refers to the whole work of the Church, rather than miracles by individuals - thats an interpretation I could accept or maybe Jesus meant evangelists would preach to greater numbers of people?

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus didn't say those words the Mockers said He trusts in God.

Are you going to believe what the Pharisees said about Jesus too ?

They said He casts out demons by Beelzebub.

Well? When Jesus cast out demons? Beelzebub was standing right next to those vacated demons.
They ended up at Beelzebub's feet. So? He did cast out demons "by" Beelzebub!

I heard that on CNN today. "The Pharisees were right! "

(anonymous eyewitness)... Yes! Jesus cast out those demons, and they ended up right by Beelzebub who was standing there ! He cast them out by Beelzebub!

 

[JohnT]

I heard that on CNN today. "The Pharisees were right! "

That would make a great sig line, genez

 

[dms1972]

Well? When Jesus cast out demons? Beelzebub was standing right next to those vacated demons.
They ended up at Beelzebub's feet. So? He did cast out demons "by" Beelzebub!

I heard that on CNN today. "The Pharisees were right! "

(anonymous eyewitness)... Yes! Jesus cast out those demons, and they ended up right by Beelzebub who was standing there ! He cast them out by Beelzebub!

What are you talking about? Jesus cast them out by [the agency of] the Holy Ghost, the finger of God. He most likely spoke in a authorative tongue the demons understood. Why bring in this stuff thats not in the passage about Beelzebub standing there and the demons landing at his feet?

 

[JohnT]

He most likely spoke in a authoritative tongue the demons understood. Why bring in this stuff thats not in the passage about Beelzebub standing there and the demons landing at his feet?

Do you see the contradiction between the first sentence and the second?

In the first, you bring up "a(n) authoritative tongue".
In the second, you complain about stuff "not in the passage"

In the first sentence, you bring in something that is never mentioned either as a "tool"-- the use of tongues as a means of exorcism, plus there is no mentioning in Scripture that Jesus used tongues other than his native language, Aramaic.

I am simply making the case for consistency.

 

[GenemZ]

What are you talking about? Jesus cast them out by [the agency of] the Holy Ghost, the finger of God. He most likely spoke in a authorative tongue the demons understood. Why bring in this stuff thats not in the passage about Beelzebub standing there and the demons landing at his feet?

huh? now I know why we have problems here!


Google this... "Sense of humor."

Then, maybe try... "Dry sense of humor."

 

[dms1972]

Do you see the contradiction between the first sentence and the second?

In the first, you bring up "a(n) authoritative tongue".
In the second, you complain about stuff "not in the passage"

In the first sentence, you bring in something that is never mentioned either as a "tool"-- the use of tongues as a means of exorcism, plus there is no mentioning in Scripture that Jesus used tongues other than his native language, Aramaic.

I am simply making the case for consistency.

Fair enough, it says nothing about Jesus speaking in a different language. I stand corrected.

 

[dms1972]

huh? now I know why we have problems here!


Google this... "Sense of humor."

Then, maybe try... "Dry sense of humor."

Because while it might be humour it mangles the sense of 'by' which is meant to indicate agency. Humor is fine I have a good sense of humour but it doesn't mix well with exegesis.

 

[GenemZ]

Because while it might be humour it mangles the sense of 'by' which is meant to indicate agency. Humor is fine I have a good sense of humour but it doesn't mix well with exegesis.

Sometimes we need to have humor because some tend to take themselves way too seriously.

And, I learn and study via exegesis almost every day. Taught from the Hebrew and Greek with exactness... and learn of the historical backgrounds and details as needed.

But, even my Pastor (who is a scholar) who teaches and demands respect while listening from serious students of the Bible... will inject humor when things seem to get too serious.

.... nothing wrong with having a little "Isaac" once in a while.

 

[John Mullally]

Some of these denoms are not solely influenced by Scripture, they sometimes also show the mark of extra biblical influences, however there are some who are more biblical. Some of the old mainline churches are influenced by a traditional understanding of Scripture as regards the Person of Christ.

We are all adults here. I participated in both types. I see that the denominations that believe more strongly in the continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit address many portions of scripture that are for all practical purposes are swept under the rug by the old mainline churches (using terms like dispensation, Sovereignty, not Gospel, and strange-fire).

1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

 

[GenemZ]

We are all adults here. I participated in both types. I see that the denominations that believe more strongly in the continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit address many portions of scripture that are for all practical purposes are swept under the rug by the old mainline churches (using terms like dispensation, Sovereignty, not Gospel, and strange-fire).

1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Those passages "swept under the rug" were pertinent at the time of writing. That is why we read instructions as to what was needed to be done while still active. And, they really did not know exactly how much longer they would remain legit..

The temporary gifts were not to immediately cease at the time of writing. Just like the OT Law became null and void in regards to animal sacrifices after the age changed, the instructions on how to perform them still remains in writing.

 

[John Mullally]

Those passages "swept under the rug" were pertinent at the time of writing. That is why we read instructions as to what was needed to be done while still active. And, they really did not know exactly how much longer they would remain legit..

The temporary gifts were not to immediately cease at the time of writing. Just like the OT Law became null and void in regards to animal sacrifices after the age changed, the instructions on how to perform them still remains in writing.

I acknowledge your gentle reply - I think this chasm accounts for a lot of disagreeableness. Yes I don't know of any OT scriptures foretelling the end of animal sacrifices. The Holy Spirit Gifts cessation argument from 1 Corinthians 13 in this day is pretty thin given the present imperfection - so I guess the cessation argument is left to rely on what your eyes tell you.

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by Faith and not by sight.

 

[GenemZ]

I acknowledge your gentle reply - I think this chasm accounts for a lot of disagreeableness. Yes I don't know of any OT scriptures foretelling the end of animal sacrifices. The Holy Spirit Gifts cessation argument from 1 Corinthians 13 in this day is pretty thin given the present imperfection - so I guess the cessation argument is left to rely on what your eyes tell you.

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by Faith and not by sight.

Peter before his death knew that the gift of prophesy had either ended, or was about to.

For in his last epistle to his congregation he indicated that in their time the gift of prophesy would have ceased...

Every word of Scripture is there for a reason.

Here is why..

But there were also false prophets among the people,
just as there will be false teachers among you. They
will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even
denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing
swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pet 2:1

Why no more prophets?​

Notice how Peter said there would not be any false prophets amongst them. How he switched to needing to use "false teachers."

But there were also false prophets among the people,
just as there will be false teachers among you. They
will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even
denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing
swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pet 2:1​

That Scripture was dictated by the anointing of the Spirit. Peter was led by God's power when Peter wrote what it says! No more prophets they knew was not to be found amongst them!

grace and peace

 

[John Mullally]

Peter before his death knew that the gift of prophesy had either ended, or was about to.

grace and peace

Before Peter, Jesus warned of false prophets. The coming of false prophets does not make the Church non-prophet.

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

I think we agree that Christians are to be led by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Fun Fact: There are several apostles listed in the New Testament that were not named in the Gospels.

 

[GenemZ]

Before Peter, Jesus warned of false prophets. The coming of false prophets, does not make the Church, the Body of Christ, non-prophet.

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Peter was talking to his INFORMED congregation. They knew. They all understood that prophesy was ended.

Now.. To the uninformed was another story. To the willfully uninformed was yet another story. Peter was writing to the well informed. They knew prophesy was to end. That is why he warned to watch out for the false teachers amongst themselves. Because they understood that gift was not to end.

Its not difficult to understand. Yet, Adam found even a command that a first grader could easily understand to be difficult to obey. Such things expose the thoughts and intents of the heart....

 

[John Mullally]

Peter was talking to his INFORMED congregation. They knew. They all understood that prophesy was ended.

Paul is believed to have written Ephesians in 60 or 61 AD and 2 Peter is believed to have been written between 65 and 68 AD. Especially the way Ephesians 4:13 is written, Paul did not expect Prophets of going away in the near term. So somehow Paul did not get the message. And why did Paul lump apostles and prophets in with evangelists, pastors and teachers?

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

[GenemZ]

Paul is believed to have written Ephesians in 60 or 61 AD and 2 Peter is believed to have been written between 65 and 68 AD. Especially the way Ephesians 4:13 is written, Paul did not expect Prophets of going away in the near term. So somehow Paul did not get the message. And why did Paul lump apostles and prophets in with evangelists, pastors and teachers?

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Not true at all..... The Greek shows that one of the gifts (tongues or prophesy) was to abruptly end, while another to fade out by losing steam. I am not having access to my reference material where I am right now. But, in no way did Paul indicate a certain time frame in which the process was to begin. Just like he taught the Rapture will be instantaneous, but not knowing when it would happen.

And, back to the reality. Peter's choice of words tells the astute reader something important. He stated that false prophets will be replaced by false teachers. I think its beautiful how God leaves indicators in His Word for the discerning believers who do walk in the Spirit.

Nothing I can do about it. I can not deny what it says to spare someone's feelings on the matter. For the argument is really not with me. To reject the Word is not to reject the messenger.

 

[John Mullally]

Not true at all..... The Greek shows that one of the gifts (tongues or prophesy) was to abruptly end, while another to fade out by losing steam. I am not having access to my reference material where I am right now. But, in no way did Paul indicate a certain time frame in which the process was to begin. Just like he taught the Rapture will be instantaneous, but not knowing when it would happen.

And, back to the reality. Peter's choice of words tells the astute reader something important. He stated that false prophets will be replaced by false teachers. I think its beautiful how God leaves indicators in His Word for the discerning believers who do walk in the Spirit.

Nothing I can do about it. I can not deny what it says to spare someone's feelings on the matter. For the argument is really not with me. To reject the Word is not to reject the messenger.

The requirement for the Prophet ministry to end in Ephesians 4:13 looks harder to fulfill than the requirement Jesus gave for his coming back in Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

[Saint Steven]

Peter was talking to his INFORMED congregation. They knew. They all understood that prophesy was ended.

Now.. To the uninformed was another story. To the willfully uninformed was yet another story. Peter was writing to the well informed. They knew prophesy was to end. That is why he warned to watch out for the false teachers amongst themselves. Because they understood that gift was not to end.

Its not difficult to understand. Yet, Adam found even a command that a first grader could easily understand to be difficult to obey. Such things expose the thoughts and intents of the heart....

The writing date for 2 Peter was between 65 and 68 AD.
John's revelation is dated to 95 AD. Had prophecy ended?

Oops. I see @John Mullally already addressed this. Good work.

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul is believed to have written Ephesians in 60 or 61 AD and 2 Peter is believed to have been written between 65 and 68 AD. Especially the way Ephesians 4:13 is written, Paul did not expect Prophets of going away in the near term. So somehow Paul did not get the message. And why did Paul lump apostles and prophets in with evangelists, pastors and teachers?

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Agreed. Removing anything from the list in Ephesians 4:11 is to dismember the body of Christ. No wonder the church is limping around like a powerless invalid. A form of godliness? (2 Timothy 3:5)

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.