So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

[BobRyan]

In all of scripture - God's warnings, rightly understood, were given to spare people some dire consequence. So then this is about people ignoring that warning and then experiencing the event being warned about, where you need the information God gives to come out on the right side of survival/fail.

And of course his end-times warnings in the Bible are "off the charts" loud and in your face drastic. (See Rev 13 for example)

=======================
Here is the BIG question

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels... (but not Matt 24 or any section dealing with end times) .. I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

They all have that same problem: (all that are commonly seen today) -- so that includes
pre-trib pre-mill
mid-trib pre-mill
post-trib pre-mill (the common form of post trib)
post-mill
amill
etc.

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible from God Himself - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Test case example ------------------------------------------

Someone in Noah's day - chooses to serve God, not worship any false God's - say prayers and be positive ... and also ignore everything related to Noah and his message staying right where he is 1200 miles from Noah. He is saying "I have never seen it rain - and I don't know who did or did not speak to Noah... too hard for me to figure out so I am going to stay right here and be good".

That person would most certainly be "at risk" if he considered drowning in a world-wide-flood along with all his family and friends -- a negative thing.

Noah's message warned of a harsh consequence - but if a person decided that they don't really mind suffering that harsh consequence well then they get what they expect. The whole point of the warning was to avoid the harsh consequence.

So what about today? In today's world do all these warnings have any downside at all for the one choosing to ignore them? As long as that person is born-again and reads those 4 gospels (sans the sections warning about end times?)

(Some might point out that if you die before the event happens that you are being warned about even happens -- then it STILL does not matter how much you knew about the warning. That scenario is "a given" - I don't think anyone debates against it.)

==================================== bottom line
If the scenarios are defective then one sign of it will be that the information they claim to convey in the scenario they describe - has no negative consequence (no risk) for someone who has very basic Christian understanding but refuses (or neglects) to be informed by the scenario.

I.e. their answer to "so what?" is "so nothing".

 

[BobRyan]

Someone mentioned that they were scared of the "mark of the beast" and I posted this --

good point. Rev 13 presents this as very very scary.

It says the whole world is deceived by it

Matthew 24 says it is soooo powerful even the very elect are at risk - "if possible to deceive the very elect".

2 Thess 2 says that it comes with all the power and signs and wonders of satan himself.

The warnings in the Bible about end times events - are off the charts.

Christ said that the real END-Times scenario is EXACTLY like the days of Noah and not knowing enough to "get in the boat" -- where most people do not take that action Noah's message pointed to... they just keep doing things as they used to do them.

Today's scenarios argue that they are NOTHING like the one give to Noah - because not doing anything different will serve you "just fine" as long as you are the person in the OP scenario who accepts Christ. (Whether or not you guessed the right ending sequence)

By contrast in the Bible we have this --

2 Peter 3
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1 Thess 5
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

Matt 24

22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
..
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
..
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be

2 Thess 2
; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth

 

[Douggg]

Here is the BIG question

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of this?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels...
I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Matthew 24:32-51 is Jesus's instructions for Christians in the parable of the fig tree generation. It is in regards to the rapture.

 

[solid_core]

If a Christian lives a godly live, God knows him and therefore he is prepared for death and therefore there is absolutely no risk in ignoring eschatology.

Interestingly, the more time one devotes to never ending eschatology guesses, the less time he actually has to spiritually grow and to help people around him.

To be prepared is not to look for signs or to read pamphlets, but to repent and live according to God's will.

 

[eleos1954]

If a Christian lives a godly live, God knows him and therefore he is prepared for death and therefore there is absolutely no risk in ignoring eschatology.

Interestingly, the more time one devotes to never ending eschatology guesses, the less time he actually has to spiritually grow and to help people around him.

To be prepared is not to look for signs or to read pamphlets, but to repent and live according to God's will.

Psalm 40:8
I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”

Revelation 22:14
King James Version

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[parousia70]

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Clearly ANY Christian from the last 19 centuries before ours who ignored the warnings suffered no risk for doing so.

 

[BobRyan]

Clearly ANY Christian from the last 19 centuries before ours who ignored the warnings suffered no risk for doing so.

True... and everyone who died before the flood suffered no risk from ignoring Noah's message about the flood.

But in that case - there was also a group that suffered huge risk from ignoring the warning.

the question here - is about a dire warning that "has no risk" attending it for those who ignore it... and when has the Bible every endorsed such an idea?

===================
in a related post on this same thread it goes like this...

...Jesus said to the Sardis Church that if they do not pay attention then He will come like a thief in that they won't be aware that he has come. ..

No doubt Jesus wants everyone to accept the Gospel - accept Christ as Savior etc be born again. That is "a given" in the OP.

But you yourself have already admitted that the one who knows nothing about the rapture (pre-trib or not) -- is at no risk at all as long as they are a Christian and given that they know that the dark ages "Happened" - they will simply find out about the rapture when they get to heaven.

so...
then...
no risk.. no bad consequence.

Which is the point of the entire thread

Please elaborate on your reason why it would be "a red flag".

1. all the warnings in the Bible about upcoming crisis events have dire consequences for those that choose to ignore that warning and its escape plan. (see the example of Noah and the flood).
I think we have seen this a few dozen times on this thread by now.

2. All the popular eschatology scenarios for second coming - have no consequence - do not matter - for the born-again Christian that ignores them all -- by the admission of their own proponents.

3 So then that is an obvious sign that they are ALL flawed in some way. The idea that all Bible examples work one way - then suddenly a bunch of johnny-come-lately modern scenarios ignore all the Bible examples and leap out onto a "no consequence does-not-matter" platform for interpreting Bible warnings about the end-times.. should be a "wake up call".

I can't read your mind to pick out any nuances you might not be saying.

Those three points have been made over and over - I am only stating the most obvious part of the entire discussion where everyone agrees to the "does not matter" part - as you yourself also did regarding the born-again Christian that rejects your view and is "pre-trib raptured anyway" with no risk at all.

Yes because you said that what I believe doesn't matter.

you yourself admitted it when you said the person who knows nothing about your view is at no risk at all -- how could this be any more obvious?

 

[BobRyan]

If a Christian lives a godly live, God knows him and therefore he is prepared for death and therefore there is absolutely no risk in ignoring eschatology.

Interestingly, the more time one devotes to never ending eschatology guesses, the less time he actually has to spiritually grow and to help people around him.

To be prepared is not to look for signs or to read pamphlets, but to repent and live according to God's will.

so then the person in the scenario of the OP is no at any risk at all for ignoring every text on this topic - as long as they keep reading the 4 gospels and maybe some of the psalms now and then and stay in the dark.

Now I will give another example of someone doing that in Noah's day.. Adding it to the OP,

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 24:32-51 is Jesus's instructions for Christians in the parable of the fig tree generation. It is in regards to the rapture.

But if the person in the OP pays no attention to Matt 24... in fact carefully avoid it since it speaks of end - times -- and just chooses to be a good born-again Christian who stays out of the weeds, out of the difficult confusing topics... just ignores everything... stays born-again and keeps reading those 4 books of the Bible

Then which scenario puts him "at risk" ?

Is there even one?

 

[solid_core]

so then the person in the scenario of the OP is no at any risk at all for ignoring every text on this topic - as long as they keep reading the 4 gospels and maybe some of the psalms now and then and stay in the dark.

Not sure why just gospels and psalms. Only the book of Revelation is mostly eschatological.

Now I will give another example of someone doing that in Noah's day.. Adding it to the OP,

Faith is the saving thing, so who has faith, is "in the ark", already. Watching TV news and trying to map it to biblical verses or debating eschatology over and over again will add nothing to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Not sure why just gospels and psalms. Only the book of Revelation is mostly eschatological.

Just trying to keep the point super simple et.

Faith is the saving thing, so who has faith,

Agreed but a lot of people throughout history did not figure out the end-times and a lot of people to this very day are probably wrong about it given that only one of the scenarios at best - could be right.

Does your answer hold any risk at all for one who "guesses wrong" or just never bothers to get into the weeds trying to figure this out??

 

[solid_core]

t a lot of people throughout history did not figure out the end-times

But it does not matter as long is it was not their main life goal.

 

[solid_core]

Does your answer hold any risk at all for one who "guesses wrong" or just never bothers to get into the weeds trying to figure this out??

No. Eschatology is not a part of soteriology.

Translation: End times view does not influence our salvation.

 

[keras]

Clearly ANY Christian from the last 19 centuries before ours who ignored the warnings suffered no risk for doing so.

But they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgement. Rev 20:11-15
If they treated the Prophetic Word as of no value or consequence to them, as many do today, then God may ask them: Why did you take no notice of the over 1/4 of My Word to you? No matter that what will happen; didn't in your lifetime, you should have been prepared for it.
As we all should be prepared and spiritually ready for dramatic events, that we can now see how and why they will all take place.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Does your answer hold any risk at all for one who "guesses wrong" or just never bothers to get into the weeds trying to figure this out??

No.

I think that is correct.

And do you have any example in scripture where God gave an over-the-top warning about an upcoming crisis event resulted in "no risk" for the person that chose to ignore it?

 

[BobRyan]

But they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgement

True and when that person says "I read the 4 gospels ... accepted Christ as my Savior and ignored the rest"

what will happen?

If they treated the Prophetic Word as of no value or consequence to them, as many do today, then God may ask them: Why did you take no notice of the over 1/4 of My Word to you?

And then that person answers: "Because when you look at all those scenarios - they make no difference. So All I need is the 4 gospels and Christ as my Savior. I had no control at all over end-time scenarios."

And then God replies "Can you think of any warning I ever gave that - had no consequence if you ignored it?"

And the person says "come to think of it... no"

And then God says "didn't you think it was a bit 'odd' that all the various solutions for my end times warnings - amounted to 'no risk' if you ignore them??"

And the persons says "well I never thought about it .. but now that you mention it - it does sound 'odd' -- why did you do that?"

God answers... "I didn't do that ... you did. My warning had dire consequences... which is why I gave it.. I was trying to spare you"

And the person says "spare me from what??!"

 

[solid_core]

I think that is correct.

And do you have any example in scripture where an over-the-top warning about an upcoming crisis event resulted in "no risk" for the person that chose to ignore it?

Again, we must understand what the salvation is, in Christian era - its faith in Christ.

You can "risk" your physical life, for example, if you will not watch what is going on around you, but nothing more. You can also die tomorrow because of thousand causes, so the question is, if some "preparation" for some hypotethical end times events is worth it at all.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
a lot of people throughout history did not figure out the end-times

But it does not matter as long is it was not their main life goal.

so in my OP proposal the person has more than satisfied the goal of "sufficiently ignoring the subject"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Does your answer hold any risk at all for one who "guesses wrong" or just never bothers to get into the weeds trying to figure this out??

No.

I think that is correct.

And do you have any example in scripture where God gave an over-the-top warning about an upcoming crisis event resulted in "no risk" for the person that chose to ignore it?

Again, we must understand what the salvation is, in Christian era - its faith in Christ.
.

So then.. the "four gospels" -- check. That is fully accounted for on the OP

Notice that in that context - John the baptizer gives "a dire warning" and a lot of people ignored it... what was "the consequence" for the nation?

 

[solid_core]

So then.. the "four gospels" -- check. That is fully accounted for on the OP

Salvation in Christ is the main topic of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. There is nothing even close, regarding importance.

Notice that in that context - John the baptizer gives "a dire warning" and a lot of people ignored it... what was "the consequence" for the nation?

Israel was destroyed, because they killed Jesus Christ, their own prophets and did not want God to be their king.

Believers in Christ were saved because they fled Jerusalem, as Jesus warned them to do.