There was a lot of hair-splitting recently in this thread over prophets vs. prophetesses. Yes, there are gender differences among male prophets and female prophetesses, but the Bible plainly indicates that their function is the same: they prophesy of God. Gender, in this specific context, matters only in distinguishing between the words used to describe what gender these people are, not what they do. The fact that they both prophesy of God, is clear in the Bible. A male prophet prophesies of God. A female prophetess prophesies of God. They are different genders, with different words, but with the same function.
Agreed.
But that's just from the prophesying angle. In regards to authority, I was the one who made the point that there is a difference among certain categories of church authority -- namely, that I believe women cannot hold positions of authority over men in church.
Scripture doesn't say that, though.
So a woman can prophesy (prophetess), and then she submits that prophecy to be evaluated by men in authority in the church.
That might be what happens now, but it wasn't like that in the OT.
Deborah said to Barak, "The Lord commands you; "Go, take with you 10,000 men ................... I will deliver Sisera into your hands". Barak did not submit this prophecy to anyone, nor even question that it was from God, but essentially said "will you come with me?"
When Josiah found the book of the law and sent priests to a prophet to get a word from God, they chose to go to Huldah, a woman, 2 Kings 22:14. no one questioned the word that she gave them to give to the king; he obeyed it and there was a mini revival.
And if a prophecy can be submitted to men, why can't a call from God? Because that's what happens; a woman says that she believes God is calling her, and clergy, and church members alike, discern if that is the case. Authority is snatched from no one - it is given by God and freely recognised by the church.
A woman can also speak in certain church contexts, but not in positions of authority over men.
Again, that's a matter of opinion.
How is preaching the Gospel "usurping authority" over a man anyway?
In sum:
1) Women can prophesy. This is not the same thing as having authority over men in church.
No, but it involves speaking in church - something that literal readers of 1 Timothy 2:12 say is not allowed.
2) Women can speak in certain church contexts, like praying and prophesying. This is not the same thing as having authority over men in church.
It would depend on the prophecy. Calling on someone to repent or give up a bad habit, or challenging them to spend more time reading God's word instead of ........, could well be seen as having authority over them.
James tells us to confess or sins to one another. If a man confessed a sin or confided a secret to a woman, they could be said to have some sort of power, or hold, over that man - if they had wicked intentions.
Jesus said that if someone sins against us we should approach them and show them their fault, Matthew 18:15. Paul also said that we should watch over one another and speak the truth in love. Supposing a man insults a woman/takes her for granted/wrongly accuses her of lying etc: shouldn't she have the right to go to him and say "you are wrong" - even if he happens to be a Minister? Some would say that this was having authority over them, yet it is how we are to live our Christian lives.
3) Women cannot be pastors, because that is holding authority over men in the church.
Again, authority comes from God. If clergy, male ministers and male church members agree that a woman has been called by God to be ordained - and freely say so - how is that "having authority" over them? Especially as a number of female Ministers/vicars are themselves under the authority of a male bishop/Superintendent.
I've learned it's very difficult to discuss the nuances of this topic. You have some who insist that women cannot prophesy -- or that what they do is somehow different from what a male prophet does; that silence in the church means never speaking ever; and then on the flip side those who say women can be pastors/priests.
That's because we only have a few ambiguous verses on the subject, rather than a clear command from God, taught by Jesus and the early church, which says that women must NEVER be ordained. The former are interpreted differently; different churches say different things. The latter - i.e a clear cut command - would be obeyed by Christian women who want to serve God.
One of the first debates I had when I came to these forums - 18 years ago? - was on this subject. I wrote that I was training as a preacher, which meant that I was being tested and assessed, and if I had misheard the call or got it wrong, God could stop me at any time by having me fail. Someone replied, "I hope you don't have to fail to realise that it's wrong". I didn't fail anything - the clergy and churches have always been supportive, affirmative and enthusiastic about my call to preach.
There have been many times over the last 16 years when I've wished that God would tell me to stop writing sermons.