Amillennialism Safe House

[now faith]

The entire notion,seems illogical according to the scriptures.
I'm not going to give chapter and verse,but if I'm wrong let me know.
The New covenant is just that.
Christ fulfilled the Law and all believers in Christ are part of His Body.
From before Abraham Noah spoke a metaphor that the sons of Japath would dwell in the tents with the sons of Shem.
When you trace the people from each son they are Gentiles and Jews.
The Lands were divided and the sons of Japath dwelled in the isles of the Gentiles.
The third son Ham,His sons went to Sodom,Gomorrah. Ninevah and, Egypt.
There are more areas I do not know the names.
They were considered Gentiles being called the sons and daughters of Cainan who Noah had cursed.
Abraham went with his maidservant Hagar and had a son Ishmael.
this is the Arabic people.
Jacob receives Gods Blessing and,Esau marries the daughters of Cainan.
Jacob is declared Israel.

At that point in Time I personally think the Gentiles were the Arabic people.
The sons of Japath were far away due to the lands being divided.
Move Forward to the promise of God writing a new Covenant in the hearts of another people due to Israelites being constantly disobedient.
This new covenant was brought to the entire world through Christ.
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM.
I doubt the sons of Japath ever had any need to break a promise of God, They were set far apart from Israel,or the Arabic people.
To wrap this up :
The Hebrew people to this Day reject Christ, just as Gentiles.
People from all places accepted Christ and are the one new man in the Body of Christ including Jews and Arabic people.
The promise of the Messiah has been fulfilled.
we learn from Hebrews if a person turns away after knowing the Spirit,Christ will not be sacrificed again.
Paul taught there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Body of Christ
Daniel teaches when we are taken up the Judgement happens and that's it.Paul teaches from Daniel

1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2: 3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I simply cannot find another dispensation of a thousand year reign,where Satan is bound then loosed to torment again .
Then being cast into the lake of fire with the Beast and those who take the mark.

Paul's Epistles are Teaching,Prophecy,and,Narrative
Daniels writing was prophecy for times to come in the future.

Revelation as best as I can say is a final Narrative that like the original scrolls
in the Form of Prophecy.
Revelation is a cumulative prophecy of Past, Present and Future.
Most people read Revelation in future tense.
The account of the Dragon being angered to kill the mother and Child all I can see is Christ Birth and,Herod decrees all Male children to be killed.
It takes Prayer and wisdom to comprehend Revelation, I'm not there yet.
I cannot see Christ becoming sin and making himself another sacarfice for those who have rejected him and died through time.
The streets of Gold in the Heavenly city speaks of being in Heaven not earth.
If WHOSOEVER means WHOSOEVER that's it.
I represent no agenda against anyone,I simply am trying to reconcile this second millennial reign.
It seemed to gain popularity Through Billy Graham at one time if I remember correctly.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What is the Amillennial view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

Im Amil and have my opinions about it, but its a subject that has a lot of variations. Whats your take?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

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Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not support the preterist (or premillennial) view of Jersualem 70AD. It is not about the physical city of JErsualem upon a pile of dirt in the Middle East, for the old testament congregation has already fallen along with the death of Christ where her kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to the New Testament Congregation. That is a different subject.

But to answer your question:

Let read Luke 21 in context:

Luke 21:21-27 KJV
[21] Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[22] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
[25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This is talking about the judgment of unfaithful New Testament congregation right prior to Second Coming, where the false prophets and Christs rules in the congregation, will no longer be able to give suck of Gospel Truth to their messengers. In other words, there is a spiritual famine going on in this unfaithful congregation. It is because of God's wrath upon THIS people, more specifically, His external messengers, for their unfaithfulness. Elect are seeing these as a "signs" of God's judgment upon this congregation. Elect was "guilty" for involvement in these unfaithful churches until Christ poured the "spirit of life" upon them (Revelation 11:11-13) so they can start STOOD UP and prophesy against what is going on with God's congregation where they are called to coming out to avoid her plagues (God's judgment). These are all terrible things to the Elect. Things that they have fear of seeing what is happening to the congregation of God. Even as explained in Revelation 18.

Revelation 18:8-10 KJV
[8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
[10] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The Elect stood far off in fear of the great terrors that have come upon her, and we mourn for her. For what she use to be, and for what bankrupt desolate she has become now. Just as if someone was being tortured/tormented and we could watch and yet can't do anything about it. That is the scenario. We stand in fear of God's terror there and mourn for the Church that was once God's faithful congregation. Sorry, but we need to read Luke again and pay attention to the last verses which this is after the fall when we are told to flee:

Luke 21:21-27 KJV
[21] Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
[22] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
[25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Clearly, the abomination of desolation in the church that Christ warned in Matthew 24:15-16 signifies its fall and its repercussions on those around it where God's Elect need to get out. The New Testament congregation is symbolically Jerusalem. So who are the Gentiles? Observe wisely:

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Both True and Professed Christians are the builders of New Testament Congregation, the Church. True Christians are spiritually Jews because they are measured (saved) and is part of God's True Temple. But the professed Christians are the unsaved in the court but is part of the Holy City. They are not saved because they are not measured by God to be part of the True. Because of their unfaithfulness, God has given them over to the Gentiles to be judged. The unsaved are spiritually Gentiles. This is the judgment of the harlot. This is the "time of the Gentiles" when God allowed the unsaved false prophets/christs (beast) to come into His congregation (externally) to rule over his unfaithful messengers so they will not be able to find salvation as a judgment! After this "hour of judgment" of the unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great) is finished, Christ returns.

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Amillennial thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

It is important to understand why God gave us the symbolic times: 1,260 days, 1,290 days, 1,333 days, 3-1/2 days, five months, one hour, etc. because we won't know precisely the starting and finishing dates for each with our calendar. These numbers are only symbolically but do come with real date only known to God. We, His messenger, do not know, because our focus was supposed to be on great commission...until the last elect is secured. We do not know when the 1,260 days of two Witnesses' testimony for the purpose of salvation is finished. We do not know precisely when Satan gets loosened from the bottomless pit (after all elect is secured), We do not know when the bodies of Two Witnesses lying dead in the street, etc. God did not give us a specific dates and times for a reason, however, Christ did promise that we will "know" where we are during the judgment of the harlot when we see the "SIGNS" in the sun, moon, and stars. That is when we will realize that the judgment of the harlot has come and know that Christ's coming is right at the door. No date-setting is needed.

Once again, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 has nothing to do with ethnic Jews or a physical city of Jersualem in physical Judea. It for those who are given to understand - spiritual discernment. One will understand that Oliver discourse prophesied about the fall of New Testament Church where the unsaved messengers (false prophets and Christs) now rules therein.

Hope this helps.

 

[now faith]

well ok thanks

 

[owly]

Riddlebarger is excellent. I am an Idealist Amil.

It was mostly Kim that led me into this position. Starting with his audio series, then reading his book. Then read Hoekema's book and a couple others.

The default position in my initial church background was premil dispy, although it as a subject was never looked into in depth; just taken as gospel. And it seems its American flavor has spread into much of the global church.

Have a better understanding now of the main launching pads in dispensational thought and why -to me- it starts out on the wrong foot. Can easily spot the same patterns pop up in debate.

Christ being King now also has huge practical ramifications through covenant expression within the church and individual sanctification.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Has Christ fulfilled the fall festivals? Amillennial view please.

We all agree that Christ has fulfilled the Jewish spring festivals. (Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits, and Pentecost) However differences of opinion arise when it comes to the fall/autumn festivals of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles.

Some say the fall festivals prefigure the resurrection at the last trump and are yet to be fulfilled. Others, in particular those of Preterist persuasion, say they were fulfilled in AD 70.

My question asks, what is the Amillennial view? Did Christ fulfill the Jewish fall festivals? how were they fulfilled? and if they haven’t yet, when?

 

[mkgal1]

Hi Chris

I was hoping someone else would chime in. Maybe @parousia70 can add something.

ISTM it was the stance of the historical church that the feasts had been fulfilled. Spurgeon said this (although I'm not certain of his millenial view....but wasn't miIllennialism a modern construct and earlier concluded to be the heresy of chiliasm?).

C.H. Spurgeon ( On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

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[mkgal1]

This is an image I was able to find.....is this your understanding of the feast calendar?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yes, that's a good picture. But parousia70 will have a full-Pret take on when Christ fulfils the Jewish fall festivals?

I suspect Amils, Futurists and Part Prets are the same on this: The fall festivals prefigure the resurrection at the last trump and are yet to be fulfilled. I don't mind if you share a Part Pret view mkgal.

 

[parousia70]

Yes, that's a good picture. But parousia70 will have a full-Pret take on when Christ fulfils the Jewish fall festivals?

I actually have a Catholic take, which is intrinsically Amillennial, yet indeed sees the festivals as fulfilled in Christ and His Church.

I Share the view of Noted Catholic theologian, (and Amillennialist) Dr Scott Hahn, here:
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...733635783/LS4+-+Temple+Sign+and+Sacrament.pdf

Significant Excerpt:
It is almost universally recognized that Jesus takes advantage of the symbolism of Tabernacles’ liturgical rituals by applying them to himself in John 7:38-39
(“If anyone thirsts, let him come to me …”) and John 8:12 (“I am the light of the
world.”). To make these claims during the feast itself was tantamount to declaring
himself to be the eschatological Temple.
Both these symbols of Temple fulfillment or replacement—water and
light—converge in the “sign” that Jesus performs in healing the man born blind
(John 9). Here, Jesus declares himself again to be the “light of the world,” and
validates that claim by bringing light to the eyes of a blind man by means of the
Temple waters of the Pool of Siloam—the water source for the ceremonies of
Tabernacles.
Already from the second century, the Church recognized the intentional
baptismal symbolism in the way John relates this healing.¹⁰² Jesus begins the healing by declaring himself to be the “light of the world” (John 9:5), evoking the early
Christian understanding of baptism as “enlightenment.”¹⁰³ !ough Jesus could
heal by uttering a word (John 4:53), he uses the Pool of Siloam in order to link his
healing power with the baptismal washing in water.¹⁰⁴ To emphasize this point,
John notes the etymology of Siloam (“which means sent”: John 9:7), associating the
pool with Jesus himself, the sent one (John 3:34).¹⁰⁵ !e man’s blindness from birth
is ostentatiously reemphasized throughout because it seems to symbolize John’s
view of all mankind prior to the spiritual rebirth of baptism.¹⁰⁶
In John 3 and John 6, we observed a post-sign mystagogical dialogue leading
to a spiritual and sacramental comprehension. Likewise here, Jesus’ final exchange
with the Pharisees (John 9:39–41) makes clear that the real issue behind the entire
narrative has been spiritual, not physical blindness.¹⁰⁷ !e enlightenment of the
blind man by water points to the more profound “enlightenment” that Jesus offers
in the waters of baptism—an enlightenment that many, like the Pharisees, reject.
Hearing these words in context, the astute in John’s audience could discern
once again that Jesus is the eschatological Temple from which we receive life-giving
water and light, and that both the Temple and the Feast of Tabernacles are fulfilled in him. Moreover, John’s original audience likewise would have understood
from these words that the reality toward which the Feast of Tabernacles pointed is
fulfilled in baptism, where believers receive spiritual light and wash in the water of
rebirth. For those who hear these words today, the sacrament of baptism becomes
all that the Feast of Tabernacles was meant to be. It remains the means by which
the Christian experiences Jesus as the new Temple.

 

[mkgal1]

Thank you, Parousia70!

Because amillennialism is such a wide net, I'm presuming there're different degrees of fulfillment believed by different people....but in reading the New Testament....there does read an anticipation for what would come soon (and in their generation).....and I believe that was the completion of the feast cycle (completing salvation).

 

[Christian Gedge]

I actually have a Catholic take, which is intrinsically Amillennial, yet indeed sees the festivals as fulfilled in Christ and His Church.

I Share the view of Noted Catholic theologian, (and Amillennialist) Dr Scott Hahn, here:
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...733635783/LS4+-+Temple+Sign+and+Sacrament.pdf

Significant Excerpt:
It is almost universally recognized that Jesus takes advantage of the symbolism of Tabernacles’ liturgical rituals by applying them to himself

Thanks for that. Dr Hahn's article does a great job of my question and he reminded us of John 7:37-39.

On the last and greatest day of the (Tabernacles) festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
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So, Christ fulfilled the spring festivals at the Cross, and the fall festivals at Pentecost. How interesting!

 

[Rodney Erps]

BAB. I am Amill and Partial Preterist.
Since you insist I not post here, I will ask on the public Amill threads..
Bye bye

 

[Rodney Erps]

I am fairly new to amillennialism and have questions also so I guess since I do not know all about it and have questions that I am not welcome here either

 

[mkgal1]

I am fairly new to amillennialism and have questions also so I guess since I do not know all about it and have questions that I am not welcome here either

That's not true. You're welcome and this is probably the best place to ask questions without the confusion of premillennial opinions confusing the issue. Sorry you got a different impression.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I am fairly new to amillennialism and have questions also so I guess since I do not know all about it and have questions that I am not welcome here either

Amill and Partial Preterists share the same view on the millennium. Post away.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Amill and Partial Preterists share the same view on the millennium. Post away.

Ahem!

 

[Christian Gedge]

Ahem!

We'll get you in to break his kneecaps if he's a full preterist.

 

[Rodney Erps]

I have not read any books by full preterests but have read some by those who call themselves partial. I get the impression that there are those who disagree with the assumption that partial preterists and amillennialists believe the same thing. Of there is a difference then what are some of them?

 

[Christian Gedge]

It a matter of degree. Full Preterists say that ALL prophecy was wrapped up in AD 70. Part Prets acknowledge that Christ will return in the future and the resurrection of the dead will take place then. Amills allow for a certain amount of prophecy to take place during the Church age up until his return. So, I'm an Amil.

Since you are searching out these matters, may I recommend the book? 'A Case for Amillennialism' by Kim Riddlebarger.

 

[Rodney Erps]

I am reading at this time Sam Waldrons book The End Times made simple. I have Kim Riddlebargers book A case for Amillennialism and also his book The man of sin and plan on reading them next.