Jerusalem Is The harlot Of Revelation, Mystery Babylon The Great

[chambers1]

Well is it Sodom or Egypt?
Was Jesus crucified there?

You state it can't be Jerusalem because Jesus was crucified outside the city walls a few hundred yards?

Don't you see your reasoning in disregarding the clear scripture, as you run from it's simple truth?

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

+1

'Mystery, Babylon' is Jerusalem without question in my opinion as the Bible explains itself ("Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: not one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate" Isa 34).

The reference to Jerusalem/Israel as 'spiritually Sodom and Egypt' could be the fact that Tel Aviv is considered the most gay friendly city in the world ( Welcome to Tel Aviv, the gayest city on earth - The Boston Globe ) and prominent Jews in media/culture have led the path toward mainstreaming homosexuality everywhere, even in our churches.

Egypt could be a reference to Judeo-Freemasonry which is steeped in Egyptian symbols/mystery religion (pyramids, all-seeing eyes). The Israeli Supreme Court is masonically inspired and was donated by the Rothschilds.

Regarding her "great riches" and "merchandise" I don't think anyone can dispute the vast wealth elite Jews in banking/finance, tech, media, real estate, Hollywood etc. possess, and while many have dual citizenship abroad they are often more loyal to Israel spiritually.

We all need to pray for the Jews and hope that as many as possible turn and realize the truth of Jesus in the last days.

 

[FredVB]

Really, ONLY ONE:

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now, what city is this?

Really? Like we are not to recognize what John the writer saw in visions written about in the book of Revelation were symbolic? No, the city that is "thy holy city" is not that which is Mystery Babylon. Though a great city is described for Mystery Babylon, being symbolic it would not be just one city, necessarily. The characteristics of the described city indicate what would be it. Civilization overall is godless, all big cities of civilization through history are characterized by the description in Revelation 18. There is no compelling reason from any scripture to designate one city for that. One city is not so much worse than another in this world. All are godless and destructive in what they use to keep going the same way and with the exploitation from them. This godless civilization is subject to Yahweh God's judgment. Civilization is ruining God's created world, and there was warning in prophecy, Revelation 11:18. We should choose an alternative way to live in this world, separately. We will be called to come out.

 

[iamlamad]

Really? Like we are not to recognize what John the writer saw in visions written about in the book of Revelation were symbolic? No, the city that is "thy holy city" is not that which is Mystery Babylon. Though a great city is described for Mystery Babylon, being symbolic it would not be just one city, necessarily. The characteristics of the described city indicate what would be it. Civilization overall is godless, all big cities of civilization through history are characterized by the description in Revelation 18. There is no compelling reason from any scripture to designate one city for that. One city is not so much worse than another in this world. All are godless and destructive in what they use to keep going the same way and with the exploitation from them. This godless civilization is subject to Yahweh God's judgment. Civilization is ruining God's created world, and there was warning in prophecy, Revelation 11:18. We should choose an alternative way to live in this world, separately. We will be called to come out.

All that may well be true, but God was zeroing in on the city where the Beast and False prophet will be when they deceive the entire world. It's not my idea, John TOLD us: "That great city,' and then on another passage told us his "great city" was Jerusalem.

I can guarantee, the Beast and False Prophet are not going to the Vatican to imitate Christ: or to any other earthly city: they will go to HIS (the Christ's) city: Jerusalem. The man of sin will not enter a Buddhist temple, or a Hindu temple and proclaim he is their God: He will go to the JEWISH temple where in former times the God of creation dwelt. He will make believe he is the God of the Jews. The world will believe him so he will end up deceiving the whole world from the city of Jerusalem - the very city that God planned for people to come to - to know HIM: the God of creation. Instead, people we be deceived from this city. Make no mistake, "mystery Babylon" is referring to the city of Jerusalem.

 

[FredVB]

All that may well be true, but God was zeroing in on the city where the Beast and False prophet will be when they deceive the entire world. It's not my idea, John TOLD us: "That great city,' and then on another passage told us his "great city" was Jerusalem.

I can guarantee, the Beast and False Prophet are not going to the Vatican to imitate Christ: or to any other earthly city: they will go to HIS (the Christ's) city: Jerusalem. The man of sin will not enter a Buddhist temple, or a Hindu temple and proclaim he is their God: He will go to the JEWISH temple where in former times the God of creation dwelt. He will make believe he is the God of the Jews. The world will believe him so he will end up deceiving the whole world from the city of Jerusalem - the very city that God planned for people to come to - to know HIM: the God of creation. Instead, people we be deceived from this city. Make no mistake, "mystery Babylon" is referring to the city of Jerusalem.

I am in agreement as the scripture passage is clear, the two witnesses for God with God's power are going to be killed, by the one called the great beast, in the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where are Lord was crucified, which is certainly Jerusalem. But not every mentioned great city is necessarily the same city. Mystery Babylon is not meaning that same city. The big cities of civilization are all represented by the characteristics shown of Mystery Babylon, the civilization has all gone apart from God's will and is altogether godless, for this believers are told they will be called to come out from it, to depart from it. And it written for us to know that God hates any being destructive to God's created earth. The fall of this Mystery Babylon, the cities of our civilization, is coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

AHEM...

 

[BABerean2]

I am in agreement as the scripture passage is clear, the two witnesses for God with God's power are going to be killed, by the one called the great beast, in the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where are Lord was crucified, which is certainly Jerusalem. But not every mentioned great city is necessarily the same city. Mystery Babylon is not meaning that same city.

What is the wicked "great city" in the Book of Revelation? Is it identified below?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.




2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (See Romans 2:28-29)



Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (See Romans 2:28-29)



Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.




Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

(See Rev. 11:8) (Why is the great city "fallen" two times in this verse? Has it ever fallen before? )


Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.



Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!


Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!


Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


What city replaces the wicked "great city"?


Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,



(See also Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:15-16, Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 3:12.)


.

 

[FredVB]

What is the wicked "great city" in the Book of Revelation? Is it identified below?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


What city replaces the wicked "great city"?

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

(See also Galatians 4:25-26, Hebrews 11:15-16, Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 3:12.).

No God has not cast away the people of Israel. Just a remnant will be left, all Israel then, from them, will be saved. No, the great city said to be Mystery Babylon does not correspond to any of Israel. It corresponds to all big cities of civilization through history. And there are what people regard as the seven continents. All of civilization, which is ungodly in that way, will collapse. God shows that believers are to be called out from it, they need to leave the cities, and not be involved in the destructiveness that civilization is involved in, which God hates, as is shown. The one known as the great beast, with his followers, will gather all he can for the last attempt to have ungodly civilization. Indeed God will overcome it and the one known as the great beast, and the heavenly city will come in its place, a great mountain will ultimately be on the restored world with its peak reaching into heaven.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No God has not cast away the people of Israel. Just a remnant will be left, all Israel then, from them, will be saved.

You are confused about Israel. The truth is that God will not cast away His People, His Congregation of Israel, which makes up of remnant of Old Testament (national Israel) AND remnant of New Testament (Church).

Romans 11:1-2 KJV
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
hen you read "Israel" in the New Testament, you automatically think national Israel instead of spiritual congregation Israel.

No, the great city said to be Mystery Babylon does not correspond to any of Israel.

Incorrect. Remember that God kept himself a remnant out of Israel. The rest is just an external or corporate believer. They are considered as Mystery Babylon in God's eyes. This is a great city that was supposed to represent God's kingdom before she BECOMES a harlot. This is talking about His UNFAITHFUL congregation that is falling. Not the remnant. Forget national Israel, Rome, United States. She is an unfaithful Church!

It corresponds to all big cities of civilization through history.

Nope!

And there are what people regard as the seven continents. All of civilization

Well didn't God's New Testament congregation, the church, went into seven continents during the faithful testimony?

which is ungodly in that way, will collapse.

Yes, when the unfaithful corporate part of the congregation (great city) fell. Nothing to do with civilization, nations, etc.

God shows that believers are to be called out from it

God did not call believers to come out of the world. We already did, in Christ. What God is saying that He called us out of His unfaithful congregation, where false prophets and christs rules.

, they need to leave the cities, and not be involved in the destructiveness that civilization is involved in, which God hates, as is shown.

No, nothing to do with physical cities of the world. Christians who leave their local unfaithful congregation still live in the cities. God did not call them to come out of New York City or Naples, Italy, anything like that. You got wrong Israel, wrong Babylon the great to begin with. Especially your twisting the words, "And so" in Romans 11:26, into "then" to fit your national Israel theory.

 

[BABerean2]

all Israel then, from them, will be saved.

I looks like you are attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

It is a common change in the text produced by those attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The manner of salvation is found earlier in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same tree.
There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in the passage.

.

 

[FredVB]

You are confused about Israel. The truth is that God will not cast away His People, His Congregation of Israel, which makes up of remnant of Old Testament (national Israel) AND remnant of New Testament (Church).

Romans 11:1-2 KJV
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
hen you read "Israel" in the New Testament, you automatically think national Israel instead of spiritual congregation Israel.

Incorrect. Remember that God kept himself a remnant out of Israel. The rest is just an external or corporate believer. They are considered as Mystery Babylon in God's eyes. This is a great city that was supposed to represent God's kingdom before she BECOMES a harlot. This is talking about His UNFAITHFUL congregation that is falling. Not the remnant. Forget national Israel, Rome, United States. She is an unfaithful Church!

Well didn't God's New Testament congregation, the church, went into seven continents during the faithful testimony?

Yes, when the unfaithful corporate part of the congregation (great city) fell. Nothing to do with civilization, nations, etc.

God did not call believers to come out of the world. We already did, in Christ. What God is saying that He called us out of His unfaithful congregation, where false prophets and christs rules.

No, nothing to do with physical cities of the world. Christians who leave their local unfaithful congregation still live in the cities. God did not call them to come out of New York City or Naples, Italy, anything like that. You got wrong Israel, wrong Babylon the great to begin with. Especially your twisting the words, "And so" in Romans 11:26, into "then" to fit your national Israel theory.

I am not confused, and nothing about God casting away his people is claimed. All Israel will be saved, at some time yet to come. God honors all God's promises to Israel, and those are meant for them. The church of true believers will not still be remaining in this world, when all Israel will be saved. It will be in the prophesied event of Zechariah 12.

Of course Israel is not just the people of the state of Israel, biblical Israel includes the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel still holding to the covenant for them, and those who join them in the Judaic covenant.

Israel in the Bible is not meaning spiritual Israel, which is meaning something other than Israel. Where is Israel is mentioned, Israel is meant, not spiritual Israel. Nothing in the Bible shows otherwise.

I looks like you are attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

It is a common change in the text produced by those attempting to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The manner of salvation is found earlier in the passage.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same tree.
There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in the passage.

Using the word so makes no difference for that. All Israel will be saved, at some time yet to come for that. Of course there is the one way to be saved, through Christ. Who says differently? We as gentiles may be grafted in to be among the people of God. But the passage showing that shows any can be removed from it for their faithlessness. We are among them only with real faith, with which we are in Christ, which is with a life being transformed from worldliness to godliness. The church will no longer be in this world when all Israel will be saved.

The topic of the thread is about Mystery Babylon, so the meaning of that does apply to the big cities of civilization.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I am not confused

Yes you are.

All Israel will be saved, at some time yet to come.

The question is what Israel did God talked about here?

God honors all God's promises to Israel, and those are meant for them.

What promise to "National Israel"? Scripture please!

The church of true believers will not still be remaining in this world, when all Israel will be saved.

Pre-tribulation lies.

Of course Israel is not just the people of the state of Israel, biblical Israel includes the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Israel still holding to the covenant for them, and those who join them in the Judaic covenant.

Matthew 21:42-45 KJV
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

If the leaders and the builders of the old testament congregation understood it, why don't you?

Israel in the Bible is not meaning spiritual Israel, which is meaning something other than Israel. Where is Israel is mentioned, Israel is meant, not spiritual Israel. Nothing in the Bible shows otherwise.

Joshua 21:43-45

• "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
• And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
• There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."

God says he already gave the land to Old Testament Israel and all he promised the fathers concerning it was fulfilled. There failed not one single thing that the Lord had promised to the fathers to the nation of Israel that wasn't fulfilled/completed/satisfied. ALL was fulfilled. According to the word of God, the Lord owes Israel nothing. All the promises of the physical land were fulfilled.

..and if you read through scripture you will see that those promises were conditional, not unconditional promises like Spiritual Israel has!

All Israel will be saved, at some time yet to come for that...The church will no longer be in this world when all Israel will be saved.

But you don't seem to understand that salvation is available to "EVERYONE" on an individual basis. Even in the Old Testament when God delivered Israel again and again and again. The nation was never all the true children of God, salvation was on an individual basis. For example, Jacob God loved, Esau He hated. "That" is individual salvation. There is no national salvation and never has been. God is immutable. This idea that God is going to save the "nation" Israel sometimes in the future after the faithful renmant of the church raptured out is bankrupt of any virtue or God-breathed truth. Period!

Israel, even as it was the Covenanted nation of God in the Old Testament, was never "all" saved. And the idea that God will soon save a remnant from Israel is redundant, for God is saving a remnant of Israel now. Almost the entire early Church was from Israel, starting with the 12 Jewish Apostles, didn't you know that?!

Romans 11:4-5

• "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
• Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Saying God will save a remnant from Israel is like making the word of God that He is even now saving a remnant from Israel, null and void! See, your problem with Premillennialism/Pre-Tribulation is that it ignores fulfilled scriptures in order to hold onto Jewish fables about the return of a physical nation. This is a pipe dream, not the prophecy of God's word. Selah!

The topic of the thread is about Mystery Babylon, so the meaning of that does apply to the big cities of civilization.

WRONG!

Mystery Babylon is a CHURCH. More specifically the unfaithful, external part of the church. Just as it was with the Old Testament Congregation. God saves the remanent from both Old and New Testament, the true spiritual Israel, for Himself. Nothing to do with your world-cities fantasy! You are looking at the wrong place, dude. But I can see why she remains a mystery to you.

 

[iamlamad]

I am in agreement as the scripture passage is clear, the two witnesses for God with God's power are going to be killed, by the one called the great beast, in the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where are Lord was crucified, which is certainly Jerusalem. But not every mentioned great city is necessarily the same city. Mystery Babylon is not meaning that same city. The big cities of civilization are all represented by the characteristics shown of Mystery Babylon, the civilization has all gone apart from God's will and is altogether godless, for this believers are told they will be called to come out from it, to depart from it. And it written for us to know that God hates any being destructive to God's created earth. The fall of this Mystery Babylon, the cities of our civilization, is coming.

Mystery Babylon is not meaning that same city. You can be wrong if you choose to be, and you have so chosen.

You are using human imagination. Everyone that does so comes up with another solution. it is FAR BETTER to go with what John wrote. He TOLD US what the Great City is. It takes you imagination or human reasoning; only believing what is written.

 

[FredVB]

Yes you are.

But you are.

The question is what Israel did God talked about here?

Israel that is meant anywhere else by Israel, when it is not specifically spiritual Israel.

What promise to "National Israel"? Scripture please!

Jeremiah 31:35-36

Pre-tribulation lies.

I never was speaking to the pretribulation rapture position. I lately am really questioning it, and have said this, but it is irrelevant here.

What about calling your statements lies? We can both play that.

Matthew 21:42-45 KJV
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

If the leaders and the builders of the old testament congregation understood it, why don't you?

I understand. The Romans came, and their kingdom was taken from them.

Mystery Babylon is not meaning that same city. You can be wrong if you choose to be, and you have so chosen.

You are using human imagination. Everyone that does so comes up with another solution. it is FAR BETTER to go with what John wrote. He TOLD US what the Great City is. It takes you imagination or human reasoning; only believing what is written.

You have chosen to be wrong, disregarding the signs and the scripture passages that show those things.

You both distract from the gospel. This, and our obedience, is what is important. Believers were not to divide, or become abusive, over understanding eschatology differently. That understanding is not essential.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I understand.

LOL, you have not yet proved BIBLICALLY correctly so far! Take one, for example, if you think you are right about this...

The Romans came, and their kingdom was taken from them.

What did the Scripture say?

Matthew 21:42-45 KJV
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Without actually compared Scripture with Scripture, you assumed that it was the Romans that came in 70AD and took the kingdom from Israel. Fine then what nation did Romans gave the kingdom to that bringing forth the fruits? Do you even know what fruits Christ referred to? And what nation is this?! And no, it also won't give back to Israel!

Take your time and make sure you learn how to back your answer up with Scripture. Not from the book of Josephus.

 

[iamlamad]

You have chosen to be wrong, disregarding the signs and the scripture passages that show those things.

You both distract from the gospel. This, and our obedience, is what is important. Believers were not to divide, or become abusive, over understanding eschatology differently. That understanding is not essential.

Not essential? Is being caught up versus being left behind "essential?"

 

[Timtofly]

LOL, you have not yet proved BIBLICALLY correctly so far! Take one, for example, if you think you are right about this...



What did the Scripture say?

Matthew 21:42-45 KJV
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Without actually compared Scripture with Scripture, you assumed that it was the Romans that came in 70AD and took the kingdom from Israel. Fine then what nation did Romans gave the kingdom to that bringing forth the fruits? Do you even know what fruits Christ referred to? And what nation is this?! And no, it also won't give back to Israel!

Take your time and make sure you learn how to back your answer up with Scripture. Not from the book of Josephus.

The NT does not mention 70AD one time. Who else is going to enlighten us on the facts? History proves a lot of things wrong, with many theologian's interpretations. How about one verse on Titus, as proof of your interpretation? Can you ignore how many times an army has actually tried to remove an opposing force from Jerusalem? It happened before 70AD. It has happened many times since 70AD. Even "Christians" sent 3 crusades into Palestine. Yet there are still people living there generation after generation as if no war had ever come since Jesus walked the same paths. Even Jesus said Some events were not supposed to be mentioned nor recorded until the proper time. How can we 1990 years later dictate what Jesus Himself said to let go of? We cannot do anything about the past. And the majority of the NT canon was not even widely distributed until after 70AD. If the early church did not come to any conclusion, how can those who even refuse any historical witness from the time, actually know and understand one iota of the events of 70AD 1990 years later? Some argue over a civil war that happened less than a couple hundred years ago that is far more documented. There is literally no proof that the past has resolved any of the book of Revelation. Such theology is a symbolic sand castle. It looks great, but lost in the past and not reality.

 

[BABerean2]

The NT does not mention 70AD one time.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

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[Timtofly]

Those verses do not confirm that 70AD fulfilled that prophecy. The 1st and 2nd century church had the chance to declare they were all fulfilled and settled. Why did they leave us in the dark?

 

[BABerean2]

Those verses do not confirm that 70AD fulfilled that prophecy. The 1st and 2nd century church had the chance to declare they were all fulfilled and settled. Why did they leave us in the dark?

Almost every Bible scholar on the planet would say you are wrong.
Please show us any which say you are correct.

Have you ever heard of the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus?

Do you know anything about the true location of the ancient Jewish temple?


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

.

 

[Timtofly]

Almost every Bible scholar on the planet would say you are wrong.
Please show us any which say you are correct.

Have you ever heard of the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus?

Do you know anything about the true location of the ancient Jewish temple?


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

That is my point. If no one had recorded any history of the time, we would have no idea whatsoever what happened. Because it is not found any where in the NT. A lot of people here want only Scripture to verify Scripture. If it was not for history outside of the Bible, no one would have any proof whatsoever. So pretend you only have the Bible and tell me, unprejudiced by outside historical facts, how the Bible says anything happened in 70AD. The NT was only starting to be written. Past history was not even a point of the NT. Current history was not a point of the NT. Not any of the history of the 1st century was the point of the NT. What is the point, was recording the words of Jesus. The admonition of the apostles to local churches.

In all these writings, no one confirmed once the actual destruction of the temple in Jerusalem as even fulfillment of Jesus' Words. Some modern prophets are more concerned about things coming to pass, than even Jesus' own disciples were about Jesus' own words being fulfilled.

Was God relying on human historians, or does God keep His Words within the framework of God's Word? Some even argue that Antiochus Epiphanes was just the Pharisees private interpretations. So any event of 70AD would just be a modern Phariseac interpretation.

Understand, I am not ruling out 70AD. I am just pointing out that God did not see it necessary to include it into the NT canon. Putting any undo interpretation on the 70AD events will be problematic to say the least. The Pharisees and Sadducees were not prepared for their Messiah. History is just repeating itself. 99% of the church will not be prepared for the Second Coming. And most cannot even get Revelation straight.

They have turned Revelation into a Vietnamese mine field claiming it has to be taken out of order and symbolically because they have planted bombs to prevent any one to get the precise path. Only they have a map that they created to confuse and cause people to just stumble around in the mud for years without getting any where.