Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Ok, so if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you would have the choice to do different from what he knows.


Huh?

Ok, so if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you would not have the choice to do different from what he knows.

Is that your final answer?
 
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Qwertyui0p

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Huh?

Ok, so if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you would not have the choice to do different from what he knows.

Is that your final answer?
No! We already agreed that God knows something is true because it is true, rather than something is true because God knows it, and thus since it is true that I choose something, God knows it, but He doesn't make it happen because knowing something has happened or will happen is not the same as determining it.
 
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No! We already agreed that God knows something is true because it is true, rather than something is true because God knows it, and thus since it is true that I choose something, God knows it, but He doesn't make it happen because knowing something has happened or will happen is not the same as determining it.
If I may ask: but how far back did God know that you would make the choice? Did He know five minutes before? Did He know how you would make this particular choice even when you were a little child? Did He know, even before you were born, that you would be born, and know that one day you would make this choice? Did He know from the beginning of Creation?
Just how much does God know?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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No! We already agreed that God knows something is true because it is true, rather than something is true because God knows it, and thus since it is true that I choose something, God knows it, but He doesn't make it happen because knowing something has happened or will happen is not the same as determining it.

Wait, what?

Would you please show me the post where I agreed to that? Are you just making stuff up? We will get nowhere if you make up things that your opponent agrees with.

Once more, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then do you have the choice to do different from what he knows? Yes or no, please. You have answered no, then not no, then not no no, etc. You keep using negatives and you appear to keep changing every time I ask.

How about giving a clear answer? If God knows for sure that you will do something, then do you or do you not have the choice to do different from what he knows?
.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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"The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future. In the beginning, God created the world and everything in it, including knowledge.

At first look, the idea of the omniscience of God may seem to be a simple concept—God knows everything. But the more we study the Bible, the more we come to understand what an incredible truth it is. Psalm 147:4-5 tells us, “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name."


we are NOT God so we have little ability to explain it
just know God is all knowing
we ALL have choice and free will
we can choose good or bad
we can choose to accept Jesus died for us & follow HIM...

EVERYONE has that choice
One small problem. Try as I will I find it hard to believe contradictory things.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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Wait, what?

Would you please show me the post where I agreed to that? Are you just making stuff up? We will get nowhere if you make up things that your opponent agrees with.

Once more, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then do you have the choice to do different from what he knows? Yes or no, please. You have answered no, then not no, then not no no, etc. You keep using negatives and you appear to keep changing every time I ask.

How about giving a clear answer? If God knows for sure that you will do something, then do you or do you not have the choice to do different from what he knows?
.
In post #128 I said

Exactly. Knowing something will happen =/= making it happen.


You replied (#130)

I didn't say it did.

What I said is, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you have no choice but to do what he knows. Do you agree?


I replied (#133)

So you are saying that something is true because God knows it, rather than God knows something because it is true?

You replied (#136)

No.

Again, what I said is, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you [would] have no choice but to do what he knows. Do you agree?


And later, in post #163, I said

We already agreed that God knows something is true because it is true, rather than something is true because God knows it, and thus since it is true that I choose something, God knows it, but He doesn't make it happen because knowing something has happened or will happen is not the same as determining it.

So I now see that you didn't exactly agree. However, your statement that if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you [would] have no choice but to do what he knows cannot be true unless something is true because God knows it, rather than God knows something because it is true, because if I were unable to choose anything else because God knew I would (remember, if I were to choose otherwise then God would know that instead) then God's knowledge would be determining reality. If God's knowledge doesn't determine reality, then God's knowing that I will choose something does not make it reality.

I hope I make myself clear.
 
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BigV

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Why can't He have a relationship if He knows our choices?

What kind of a relationship do you expect with a person who will reject all your advances, and you know it ahead of time. Why would you even try approaching that person?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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In post #128 I said

Exactly. Knowing something will happen =/= making it happen.


You replied (#130)

I didn't say it did.

What I said is, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you have no choice but to do what he knows. Do you agree?


I replied (#133)

So you are saying that something is true because God knows it, rather than God knows something because it is true?

You replied (#136)

No.

Again, what I said is, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you [would] have no choice but to do what he knows. Do you agree?


And later, in post #163, I said

We already agreed that God knows something is true because it is true, rather than something is true because God knows it, and thus since it is true that I choose something, God knows it, but He doesn't make it happen because knowing something has happened or will happen is not the same as determining it.

So I now see that you didn't exactly agree. However, your statement that if God knows for sure that you will do something, then you [would] have no choice but to do what he knows cannot be true unless something is true because God knows it, rather than God knows something because it is true, because if I were unable to choose anything else because God knew I would (remember, if I were to choose otherwise then God would know that instead) then God's knowledge would be determining reality. If God's knowledge doesn't determine reality, then God's knowing that I will choose something does not make it reality.

I hope I make myself clear.
Ok so you now admit that I did not agree with you that God knows things because they are true.

Now can we get back to the question you refuse to address? If God knows you will do something, do you or do you not have the option to do it different from what he knows?
 
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Radagast

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Once more, if God knows for sure that you will do something, then do you have the choice to do different from what he knows? Yes or no, please.

There are basically 3 standard answers:

The Calvinist view (which I personally hold to): God knows for sure that I will do something; I do not have the choice to do anything different from what he knows; I have compatibilist free will but not libertarian free will.

The Open Theist view, which I believe to be incompatible with orthodox Christianity: God does not know for sure that I will do something; He is not omniscient; I have libertarian free will.

The Boethian view (which is what I think @Qwertyui0p is arguing for): God knows for sure that I will do something; I do not have the choice to do anything different from what he knows; but because God is not in time, any statements implying that He is (e.g. "God knew yesterday ...") are meaningless; God's foreknowledge is not causal.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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There are basically 3 standard answers:

The Calvinist view (which I personally hold to): God knows for sure that I will do something; I do not have the choice to do anything different from what he knows; I have compatibilist free will but not libertarian free will.

The Open Theist view, which I believe to be incompatible with orthodox Christianity: God does not know for sure that I will do something; He is not omniscient; I have libertarian free will.

The Boethian view (which is what I think @Qwertyui0p is arguing for): God knows for sure that I will do something; I do not have the choice to do anything different from what he knows; but because God is not in time, any statements implying that He is (e.g. "God knew yesterday ...") are meaningless; God's foreknowledge is not causal.
A Calvinist, an Open Theist and a Boethian walk into a bar. They start arguing theology so the bartender joins in.

"Did you gentlemen choose to come here?" he asks.

"No," says the Calvinist, "God decided it."

"Yes," says the Open Theist, "What does God know?"

"Huh?" says the Boethian, "I'll have another beer."

An hour later the bartender asks the same question. "Huh?" says the Boethian, "I'll have another beer."

Hour after hour the bartender asks the same question with the same response.

Finally the bartender tells him, "We need to close for the night. Aren't you ever going home?"

"Huh?", says the Boethian. "In heaven it's still 5:00!"
 
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Radagast

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A Calvinist, an Open Theist and a Boethian walk into a bar. They start arguing theology so the bartender joins in.

"Did you gentlemen choose to come here?" he asks.

"No," says the Calvinist, "God decided it."

"Yes," says the Open Theist, "What does God know?"

"Huh?" says the Boethian, "I'll have another beer."

An hour later the bartender asks the same question. "Huh?" says the Boethian, "I'll have another beer."

Hour after hour the bartender asks the same question with the same response.

Finally the bartender tells him, "We need to close for the night. Aren't you ever going home?"

"Huh?", says the Boethian. "In heaven it's still 5:00!"

My doubts as to whether you had a sincere question are now answered.
 
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ViaCrucis

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OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?

I would suggest looking at it differently. Does your knowledge of what happened yesterday mean that what happened yesterday was pre-determined?

Is hindsight evidence of fatalism?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fwGod

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OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?
Apparently you think that God made you post the question, therefore you had no independent curiosity in why you posted it. You had no reason such as to glean an answer from any who'd apparently be controlled by God to read it.

In which case, God is using people to interact with Himself. We are all no more than barbie dolls having no choice but to do or say whatever God would have us do or say.
If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.
If that's true, then you could do nothing else but ask it. But then logically (God thinking through me) you couldn't have had any independent thinking of a purpose why you did.

And therefore it was God who made you ask it. But then there's no knowing why God did. Which makes for confusion.
But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?
How did you jump to that? Has God questioned Himself through you? Has God answered Himself through me?

God kept me up all night long last night so He had mercy on me to let me sleep through till late in the day so I hope that He'll let me go to bed before midnight tonight, but then I really have no reason to hope anything because dolls have no will of their own.

If I could have any independent thoughts I'd think that God was toying with the idea of what would happen with the toys in the movie if they had wills of their own.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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If God's knowledge doesn't determine reality, then God's knowing that I will choose something does not make it reality.

Suppose I ask God what you will have for breakfast tomorrow. Suppose he tells me what you will have. At that point, do you or do you not have the freewill to choose something different for breakfast?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Apparently you think that God made you post the question
No, I think it was the sum total of matter and forces that make up my brain that made the decision to start this thread. If you choose to call that sum of stuff "I", then "I" made the decision. If you choose to call it "stuff", then that stuff made the decision.
therefore you had no independent curiosity in why you posted it..
Actually, the decision maker--the stuff inside my body-- had independent curiosity.

How do I know that? Because I observed the stuff make that decision out of curiosity.

In which case, God is using people to interact with Himself. We are all no more than barbie dolls having no choice but to do or say whatever God would have us do or say.

The stuff that makes up me--I call that stuff "I"--chooses to do what that stuff chooses.

If that's true, then you could do nothing else but ask it. But then logically (God thinking through me) you couldn't have had any independent thinking of a purpose why you did.
If quantum effects change what I will think tomorrow, then nobody can know what I will do tomorrow.

The question is whether the stuff that makes up "me" varies due to quantum effects, or whether that stuff was predetermined by the nature of the big bang. I suppose the former is the case.

And therefore it was God who made you ask it. But then there's no knowing why God did. Which makes for confusion.
God? I have not need for that hypothesis.

How did you jump to that? Has God questioned Himself through you? Has God answered Himself through me?
I doubt it. Has God answered me through you?



God kept me up all night long last night so He had mercy on me to let me sleep through till late in the day so I hope that He'll let me go to bed before midnight tonight, but then I really have no reason to hope anything because dolls have no will of their own.
The stuff that makes up me is free to do what the stuff that makes up me chooses to do.

Or so it would seem to me.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Mary went to Jesus in the Bible and asked for wine at the wedding
That was quite clever of her. Could she have chosen not to ask for wine?

Can the 144,000 prophesied in Revelation choose not to perform the functions that the book of Revelation said they will do?

The Bible says Jesus told the disciples Judas would betray him. After that, did Judas have freewill to choose not to do it?
 
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