Undecided on the Rapture Timing

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

 

[Heavenhome]

I don't have a definitive answer and having also spent a fair amount of time studying it have come to the conclusion that I leave it in Gods hand. I firmly believe that some things we may not have the full picture of until they actually happen.
In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?

I guess I would, if pushed tend more to mid tribulation, but having said that I am happy to do what Jesus said which was to be prepared as the wise virgins and of course : "Watch and pray".

We should be prepared for His return at anytime.

 

[ewq1938]

Understanding the rapture timing is really very simple:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul.

 

[SeventyOne]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Two clear pictures of the rapture we are given are in Revelation 12 and Isaiah 26. The first describes a time when Satan and his angels are cast on earth before he persecutes Israel causing them to flee into the wilderness. The other describes it as a time prior to the Lord beginning to execute judgment on the earth. These two combined would place it prior to the seals being opened in Revelation 6.

You add these clear passages with others like the trib is called the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, not the Church. Jesus in Luke 21 details the signs of the trib and states that when they begin to come to pass that's when our redemption is near, the beginning, not the end. Then He expands on that a bit and says to pray always to escape off those trib signs and to stand before Him instead, again, before and not after.

I'm not aware of any mental gymnastics needed.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Two clear pictures of the rapture we are given are in Revelation 12 and Isaiah 26. The first describes a time when Satan and his angels are cast on earth before he persecutes Israel causing them to flee into the wilderness. The other describes it as a time prior to the Lord beginning to execute judgment on the earth. These two combined would place it prior to the seals being opened in Revelation 6.

You add these clear passages with others like the trib is called the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, not the Church. Jesus in Luke 21 details the signs of the trib and states that when they begin to come to pass that's when our redemption is near, the beginning, not the end. Then He expands on that a bit and says to pray always to escape off those trib signs and to stand before Him instead, again, before and not after.

I'm not aware of any mental gymnastics needed.

Well I'm confused where it says the verse in Jeremiah about Jacob's Trouble is the 7 year tribulation, what if that's another prophesy that's already been fulfilled. Also I am confused why 1 Corinthians and 2 Thessalonians say "the last trumpet" and "trump of God", what are these referring to? There are no other instances in scripture that talk about it. Unless you go to the post-trib position and say those refer to the angel trumpets talked about in Revelation. That's why I have to use mental gymnastics in assuming this trumpet means something else that's not stated anywhere else in scripture. And why does it say "last trumpet", will there be other trumpets before the rapture? Where in scripture does it talk about that?

 

[JulieB67]

I feel like Christ lays out everything perfectly in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. When he says he comes "immediately" after the tribulation I choose to believe him. He has foretold us "all" things. If he was coming before the tribulation, he would have certainly told us. Even the word "taken" in Matthew 24:40 which started the whole "Left Behind" thing is not the same meaning as the word "taken" in Matthew 9:15 when Christ talks about the bridegroom being taken. Those are two different Greek words and the word "taken" in Matthew 24:40 is paralambano and it means, to receive near, associate oneself with. The word taken in Matthew 9:15 is apairo, it actually mean's removed, lift off....

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

We know by Revelation that Christ returns at the 7th. So that would be the trump of God.

The problem with a pretrib rapture with 1st Thess 4:17 is that some people stop there. But the manuscripts had no chapters and Paul is still continuing on the same subject so we need to read these completely as to not lose context,

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

So right there you see that Paul names the event of 4:17 "the day of the Lord". The day of the Lord has been talked about all throughout the bible.

Paul had to write a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians though because they too, were confused on the timing. He tells them to not even be confused even by their first letter that the day of Christ/day of the Lord (same "day", subject hasn't changed) was at hand. He says "that day shall not happen until a great falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Both Christ and Paul give out strict warnings not to be deceived on this subject. If the warnings were not important, they would not have given them.

Paul says, I will tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed at the "last' trump in 1st Cor 15:51 and 52.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Last in the Greek is the "fartherest out" That would be the 7th trump when aligned up with the trumps in Revelation. And this also lines up with 1st Thess 4:16. And we have to align those up with Revelation because that is the subject, when Christ returns. He returns at the 7th. Antichrist/Satan will be here at the 6th. As you said, there are no mentions of trumps in the NT other than the ones in Revelation. That's because they are talking about the 7th and last trump.

Christ says those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And Paul says we must have the full gospel armour on to stand in that evil day. I don't think they can make it any clearer that Christians will be here during the tribulation.

Some will tell you that the Holy Spirit will be removed. But Christ himself taught that some will be delivered up at that time for a testimony (same as Revelation 12) and not to premeditate but that it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them. Also in Revelation 12, we note that it's Michael that's fighting with Satan and after this battle is when Satan and his angels are thrown out. That is future.

Acts 3:21 says Heaven must receive Christ until the restitution of all things.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."


Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

I used to believe in a rapture (taught that in the church I grew up in) but I don't find it biblical at all.

 

[timothyu]

What makes people think they are more capable than Jesus?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[JulieB67]

What makes people think they are more capable than Jesus?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows the day or hour but we are to watch for the signs and seasons as given by Christ so that day does not over take us a thief as Christ and Paul also taught. That's what a watchman does.

 

[timothyu]

but we are to watch for the signs and seasons as given by Christ so that day does not over take us a thief as Paul also taught.

Like when kids hear the teacher coming? That's a case of too little too late. Not fooling anyone, especially Jesus. Is He capable of being fooled?

 

[TribulationSigns]

What makes people think they are more capable than Jesus?

Mark 13:32 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Indeed, no Christians, including myself, will be able to know exactly when Christ will return. But God allows us to see the SIGNS of his impending coming. The only difference between true Christians and professed Christians is how they recognize the signs. One group sees the true signs in regard to what is happening within God's congregation the Church, while the others are insisting the signs are about the Middle East, America, war, physical mark, cosmic events, etc.

Wise Virgins v.s. Foolish Virgins.

 

[timothyu]

Indeed, no Christians, including myself, will be able to know exactly when Christ will return. But God allows us to see the SIGNS of his impending coming.

Perhaps every generation seeing those signs is a hint from God maybe we should get our acts together.

 

[Sorn]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

These are pre trib and pretty good, may have some ideas you have not considered before. Agree though that its tough to have water tight position.

- Pt1

- Pt2

 

[SeventyOne]

Well I'm confused where it says the verse in Jeremiah about Jacob's Trouble is the 7 year tribulation, what if that's another prophesy that's already been fulfilled. Also I am confused why 1 Corinthians and 2 Thessalonians say "the last trumpet" and "trump of God", what are these referring to? There are no other instances in scripture that talk about it. Unless you go to the post-trib position and say those refer to the angel trumpets talked about in Revelation. That's why I have to use mental gymnastics in assuming this trumpet means something else that's not stated anywhere else in scripture. And why does it say "last trumpet", will there be other trumpets before the rapture? Where in scripture does it talk about that?

There are actually several trumpets in scripture that could correlate with what Paul wrote about. First, that letter was written with numerous instances of feast-related language. Second, he wrote it without a lot of detail concerning the trumpet which implies its recipients would be familiar with the concept already. The 7th trumpet of Revelation would not have been a concept they would have been aware of yet. Both Pentecost and Feast of Trumpets have a 'last' trumpet design to them. Pentecost saw an actual trumpet of God blowing in Exodus 19, prompting the Lord to come down to the mountain and Moses to come up to him, a picture of the rapture. The only other trump of God in scriptures is the one Paul describes happening at the rapture. The Feast of Trumpets actually has a series of 100 trumpet blasts associated with it, the last blast being regarded as the last trump. A feast-related trumpet isn't an unreasonable resolution.

A mention of a last trump in no way requires it to be the last one forever, just the last in a series. For example, if you were to come to my home and eat my last cookie and tell me, 'hey, I just ate the last cookie', would it be reasonable of me to assume you meant the last of those in my home or the last cookie in the world. This is the kind of reasoning being utilized by those who demand the last trump has to be the last one in Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

If you start hearing trumpets, the 7th is not a thief. The first one is a thief. The other 6 Trumpets already gave the 7th one away. Unless one lost count? There will be a period of great tribulation in short order. That does not mean to get ready after tribulation. The church should be ready now. Only those celebrating the feast of the trumpets will know when the last trump is. What church celebrates the feast of the trumpets?

 

[JulieB67]

Like when kids hear the teacher coming? That's a case of too little too late. Not fooling anyone, especially Jesus. Is He capable of being fooled?

No. A Christian grounded in the word of God would know the signs. Especially as taught by Christ in gospels. And later by Paul. It has nothing to do with waiting to get your life together at the last moment. Someone that's on that path would not be grounded in the word regardless, quite the opposite.

And when you ask about Jesus being fooled, it's him that's urging us to watch.

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
I actually believe this goes hand in hand with the belief that many Christians believe Christ returns before the 7th trump. Which he doesn't. But it also lines up with Paul's teaching in 1st Thessalonians 5 about the people feeling peace safe, and then bam, destruction. When at any time in the world has anyone felt peace and safety? Antichrist will be here already bringing on fake peace and posperity. (Daniel) Anti in the Greek means "instead of" he will be here instead of Christ and the whole world wonders after him. And it's God that sends the delusion because people would rather believe the lie than accept the love of the truth. Then when the true Christ comes back they will be praying for mountains to fall on them in their shame. We have to wait for the true Christ and not fall away to the fake.
That's why Christ and Paul give out very strict warnings.

Luke 21:31 "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is night at hand."

Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away

Luke 21:34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."
Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We aren't to know the exact time or even the exact season at this point. But when you see the things come to pass as Christ lays them out, then know it is near.

 

[JulieB67]

If you start hearing trumpets,

If people on earth could hear the trumpets, no one would probably be deceived.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

The day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. And Paul continues in 2nd Thessalonians and says that "day" shall not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

Peter also teaches the Day of the Lord comes as a thief.

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

This happens at the 7th and last trump.

 

[Timtofly]

If people on earth could hear the trumpets, no one would probably be deceived.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

The day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. And Paul continues in 2nd Thessalonians and says that "day" shall not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

If the church cannot hear the trumpets, what did Paul hear? Paul sees it as one event, but Jesus Christ the Lamb comes twice. Satan is already sitting on a throne thinking he has the world just where he wants the world. Even the church has apostasized. No one has the truth, because no one is in agreement. Look how much people do not agree in these forums. There is no consensus of truth. Each person obviously thinks they are right. Satan has been exposed, albeit in weird ways. Nothing is preventing Christ from coming. The rapture will happen when least expected. Not when everyone thinks it will happen.

 

[BABerean2]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Tolworth John]

have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct

Then simplify down to what you and everybody is absolutely certain about and that is

Jesus is coming again.

We known nothing else, it is all speculation.

 

[JulieB67]

Nothing is preventing Christ from coming

I choose to believe Christ and Paul and the certain events that they say "must happen" before our gathering back to him.

The rapture will happen when least expected. Not when everyone thinks it will happen.

The day of the Lord will happen when least expected, that's the point. When will people be "not" expecting him? When they believe Christ has already returned. That's the point of Paul's teaching in 1st Thessalonians chapter 5.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

That's why I posted in my previous post about when will this world ever feel peace and safety? When they believe Christ has returned.

The antichrist/Satan will proclaim to be God and people will fall away and believe it. Because many are "expecting" Christ to come before him. And again it's God that sends the strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Transformed in the Greek is 3345-"Metaschematizo, it means to transfigure or disguise.

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

We see he has two horns like a lamb (symbolic of Christ) but spoke as a dragon.

Satan is already sitting on a throne thinking he has the world just where he wants the world.

No, he has not sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God yet. He is in fact being held by Michael at this point. After that battle he will be thrown out of Heaven. This is future because it will be the testimony of the Saints that Christ taught is their way of overcoming him.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night

That is how Satan has been spending his time.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

This coincides with,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Some will be tried during this time. But they will overcome him by the word.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

We know Christ has shortened the time.

Again, this battle with Michael is future. He's the one that's been with Satan (even talked about in Jude) and once he stands up that battle happens, he will be thrown out.


Question, you say that the pretrib rapture comes like a thief in the night. But how do you explain this verse which clearly states the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night?

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

We can't seperate his coming/The day of the Lord into 2 events. Especially with verses like this. It will not work.