SummerMadness

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Men's Rights Lawyer Eyed in Shooting of NJ Judge's Family
The gunman who shot the husband and son of a federal judge in New Jersey is believed to be a lawyer and men’s rights activist who was found dead of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound hours later, two law-enforcement sources told The Daily Beast.

Roy Den Hollander was discovered in the upstate New York town of Rockland, the sources said. He had a case—a challenge to the military’s male-only draft—pending before Salas, according to court documents.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Story from 2013:

Hollander said the defeats were starting to get to him.

"I'm beginning to think it's time for vigilante justice – civil disobedience," he said, elaborating that he "may pull a Carrie Nation on the Ladies' Nights clubs."

Carrie Nation, who died in 1911, was a radical member of the temperance movement who vandalized bars with a hatchet.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Sounds like this judge was also involved in some upcoming cases involving high ranking members of the Crips and other high ranking narcotics traffickers as well.

Given the kind of people this judge was involved in cases for, I can understand why some folks would jump to the conclusion of foul play.

I try to steer clear of conspiracy theories, but I'd by lying if I didn't initially think something fishy was going on when I first heard the story before more details came out.

A judge presiding over cases for Epstein affiliates and high ranking drug traffickers, being the target of violent intimidation tactics wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

People like Escobar and Pacho Herrera had judges killed, prosecutors' cars blown up, etc... back during the 80's and 90's in order to "protect interests". The higher ranking members of current cartels have even had hit squads sneak across the border to carry out killings. ...and have gone as far as killing children, relatives, etc...

So, it's understandable that people may have jumped to the conclusion that a judge presiding over cases involving associates of the likes of Epstein (who's was, and was connected to people, every bit as powerful as the aforementioned entities) could be the target of foul play.

It would seem that Epstein was associated with high ranking members of both political factions, as well as powerful people all over the world who'd have a lot to lose from certain details coming out...I think if anyone was being honest with themselves, absent of further details, they'd admit that the thought crossed their mind.
 
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iluvatar5150

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People like Escobar and Pacho Herrera had judges killed, prosecutors' cars blown up, etc... back during the 80's and 90's in order to "protect interests". The higher ranking members of current cartels have even had hit squads sneak across the border to carry out killings. ...and have gone as far as killing children, relatives, etc...

For those who don't recall, Escobar went so far as to blow up a commercial 727 in an attempt to assassinate a presidential candidate.
Avianca Flight 203 - Wikipedia
 
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Tanj

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So, it's understandable that people may have jumped to the conclusion that a judge presiding over cases involving associates of the likes of Epstein (who's was, and was connected to people, every bit as powerful as the aforementioned entities) could be the target of foul play.

It sure is. What is less understandable is the people that will now deny this MRA evidence and still believe it was foul play, and said perp is a fall guy/innocent/framed/patsy.
 
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whatbogsends

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It sure is. What is less understandable is the people that will now deny this MRA evidence and still believe it was foul play, and said perp is a fall guy/innocent/framed/patsy.

Is it more or less understandable than thinking Epstein was killed to keep him quiet rather than believing he killed himself while in prison?
 
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Tanj

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Is it more or less understandable than thinking Epstein was killed to keep him quiet rather than believing he killed himself while in prison?

Equally (less understandable). If I was the head of a paedophile ring sitting in jail knowing the public shaming and penalties that were about to become my entire life for the rest of it, I'd be looking to shorten said life as well.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Equally (less understandable). If I was the head of a paedophile ring sitting in jail knowing the public shaming and penalties that were about to become my entire life for the rest of it, I'd be looking to shorten said life as well.

...I think the aspect of the fact that it's been widely believed that people who were participants in said ring were also very powerful people (with a lot to lose if certain information comes out) could be capable of "shutting someone up before they expose anything" is a plausible premise in the minds of many.

I haven't seen conclusive evidence of foul play in his case which is why I wouldn't jump on the conspiracy train for it...but technically, it could still be a plausible premise. People with way less power and influence have been able to knock people off in jail and have surveillance tapes mysteriously disappear with the help of crooked COs.

If there was a news report that came out tonight saying "we now have conclusive evidence that guards took money from someone to allow another inmate to enter his cell and strangle him and then make it look like a suicide", or "they knew he was suicidal, but transferred his cell mate out and intentionally neglected to check up on him" I can't say I'd be terribly shocked.

The circumstances surrounding Epstein were basically the perfect storm for stirring up conspiracy sentiments among a lot of people.

A guy who could "name names"
Gets removed from suicide watch
First they claimed the camera was malfunctioning
Then they claim "someone accidentally deleted the footage"
One of the guards gets busted for falsifying records
Officials said it's particularly unusual for people housed in the SHU, and that they're typically housed with another inmate


You can't necessarily fault people for jumping to that conclusion.
 
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Tanj

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...I think the aspect of the fact that it's been widely believed that people who were participants in said ring were also very powerful people (with a lot to lose if certain information comes out) could be capable of "shutting someone up before they expose anything" is a plausible premise in the minds of many.

And like I said, that's perfectly reasonable. It's continuing to hold onto these ideas once 0 evidence comes along to support them and a mountain comes along to refute.

I haven't seen conclusive evidence of foul play in his case

Have you seen any evidence at all? like including the inconclusive type?

People with way less power and influence have been able to knock people off in jail and have surveillance tapes mysteriously disappear with the help of crooked COs.

Really? I didn't know that. Evidence please.

You can't necessarily fault people for jumping to that conclusion.

I can fault them for not jumping away when it continues to be unevidenced.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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ThatRobGuy

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Have you seen any evidence at all? like including the inconclusive type?

Evidence of? That there was a bunch of suspicious sounding circumstances around Epstein's death...there certainly were.

I still think the odds are that he offed himself, but possibility exists that there was foul play...I won't rule it out.

When guards have changed their stories multiple times, and the notion that a high profile prisoner (who was already on suicide watch) was just left on his own and multiple guards neglected check-ups over a dozen times over a 48 hour period...and first claimed that security cameras weren't working, then when that was shown to be incorrect, claimed "the footage was accidentally deleted" certainly sounds a tad suspicious.

You can see why some people would jump on the conspiracy bandwagon on that one...I don't fault them for that TBH.

In all honesty, I do believe he killed himself...but I wouldn't be particularly surprised if evidence came out later down the road that suggested otherwise.

The evidence of foul play with regards to Epstein is stronger than evidence of a Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy, yet that doesn't stop a lot of people from propagating that theory.

In general, I think people lean on conspiracy theories to explain things that they can't wrap their head around.
 
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Tanj

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Well no Rob, obviously none of that is relevant to the conversation. I said nothing about the general violence in prisons. Here's the statement of yours I was responding to:

People with way less power and influence have been able to knock people off in jail and have surveillance tapes mysteriously disappear with the help of crooked COs.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Is it more or less understandable than thinking Epstein was killed to keep him quiet rather than believing he killed himself while in prison?

Equally (less understandable). If I was the head of a paedophile ring sitting in jail knowing the public shaming and penalties that were about to become my entire life for the rest of it, I'd be looking to shorten said life as well.

So in other words no need for a conspiracy when incompetence will do. You could be right. I have hard that most suicides are due to depression and are a call for help. Part of them want to get caught and be prevented from killing themselves. People that really want to kill themselves do not give any warning. Epstein might have laid low and cooperated until their guard dropped. Then he took advantage of that lack of attention.
 
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