Papal Infallibility - Making me sad, and it's bigger implication

[Markie Boy]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Where would you go from here?

go where the Truth is. someone has to have the proper understanding of Rome's position.

 

[Arc F1]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

I'm not catholic but from what I've seen on the vortex (church militant) videos from YouTube they definitely have some issues to deal with.

 

[pdudgeon]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

I would go back to the beginning.

Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope is perfect, it means that the Pope cannot fail....
But there is a second, understood caveat which reads, "so long as He follows God".
And there is your key to understanding.

And that's true of all of us, not just the Pope.

So when a person is a new Catholic and struggling to understand this concept of infallibility, it's also wise to remember that satan had that exact same problem with believing that God was supreme over all.

He couldn't get around it, he couldn't get over it, so he rebelled against it.
The result was he was kicked out of Heaven.

And that is also why new Catholics must state that they renounce and turn away from satan, and all his lies and deceit.

 

[zippy2006]

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

That's not an argument. I sure hope you have more to go on than that.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

If you don't believe in infallibility you don't believe in infallibility, but this is an invalid argument from the Orthodox perspective. The East would not hold a local (Western) council to be infallible.

 

[Markie Boy]

Yes - I have much more in depth arguments to support why I am at this position.

There is clear support from theologians that Boniface the 8th's Unam Sanctacm is an infallible statement - yet it's so contradictory to today's teaching.

The simple fact that nobody can come up with a list of statements shows it's not historical. This video lines up problems pretty well - start at about 32 minutes shows the opposition at Vatican I by Catholics! Some of the points a personal problems - but some of them are on faith and morals.

 

[Markie Boy]

That's not an argument. I sure hope you have more to go on than that.



If you don't believe in infallibility you don't believe in infallibility, but this is an invalid argument from the Orthodox perspective. The East would not hold a local (Western) council to be infallible.

No, but the West does hold Vatican I to be infallible. I'm not holding the East to the claims of the West.

 

[Phronema]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

Well, first I want to preface what I'm about to say with the fact I believe that we as Orthodox share a close history intertwined with the Roman Catholics which shows, and so I don't mean them any offense. I also have to be careful not to fall into the sin, and heresy of ecumenism. But, that said I do appreciate many things about Roman Catholicism, but there are things I cannot affirm as truths, and so I became Orthodox.

So, you've come to a conclusion that seems meritorious to you. You're asking where to go from here? I'd say the answer is to look to history. Look very closely at how the early Church was handled by the bishops who held Apostolic Succession at that time both East, and West. Your answer in my opinion lies there ultimately.

At which of the Seven Ecumenical Councils was a Roman Catholic Pope the final say? The answer is none. The Church is, and always was conciliar, and I mean since the time of the Apostles. The position of 'honor' attributed to the Seat of St. Peter was a position of honor as it is today in the Orthodox Church in Constantinople.

As far as how, or why anyone in the Roman Catholic Church believes what they do I'd not concern yourself with it. I can understand how heart breaking a realization of this type may be as you may feel betrayed. Please don't feel that way though. Work your way through the experience slowly as you have been doing, and continue to remain logical, and not emotional where possible. Continue to seek the truth as Fr. Matt mentioned above.

 

[Lost4words]

I'm not catholic but from what I've seen on the vortex (church militant) videos from YouTube they definitely have some issues to deal with.

Dont believe everything you see on youtube about people criticising Catholicism. Its usually done by those that have pre disposed ideas of Catholicism and untruths and lack of knowledge.

 

[Lost4words]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

Read this fully:

Papal Infallibility

 

[Arc F1]

Dont believe everything you see on youtube about people criticising Catholicism. Its usually done by those that have pre disposed ideas of Catholicism and untruths and lack of knowledge.

I don't, it just shows up in the feed. All that group reports on is the catholic church. I think it's called church militant and the show is vortex.

 

[Markie Boy]

I don't, it just shows up in the feed. All that group reports on is the catholic church. I think it's called church militant and the show is vortex.

Can I ask - what did you see on the Vortex? I recently read some of the book Infiltration by Taylor Marshall. At the end he asks why we just can't admit that what the RCC is now is different that what it used to be - insisting a lack of continuity. And that's from a Catholic source.

 

[Markie Boy]

Read this fully:

Papal Infallibility

Thanks for the article.

I guess if one holds to the strict stipulations it may be more palatable. In which case there are only two infallible decrees. But if that's the case, why wasn't it used for the first 1800 years of Church history?

 

[Broken Fence]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

Greetings and Salutations @Markie Boy
Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ your faithful High Priest. Lord we ask in the name of Jesus that you will be with Markie Boy, Lord we ask that You will fill him with Your Holy Spirit. That You will lead him and protect him, that You Holy Father God will direct his steps. We ask that You will send Your holy angels to fight against the spiritual enemy around him. We plead the Blood of Christ over him, his family, his friends and all those he loves.

Lord we ask this in Jesus's holy name. Amen.

 

[Lost4words]

Greetings and Salutations @Markie Boy
Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ your faithful High Priest. Lord we ask in the name of Jesus that you will be with Markie Boy, Lord we ask that You will fill him with Your Holy Spirit. That You will lead him and protect him, that You Holy Father God will direct his steps. We ask that You will send Your holy angels to fight against the spiritual enemy around him. We plead the Blood of Christ over him, his family, his friends and all those he loves.

Lord we ask this in Jesus's holy name. Amen.

Post #10 above has his answer.

Glory to God

 

[trulytheone]

Thanks for the article.

I guess if one holds to the strict stipulations it may be more palatable. In which case there are only two infallible decrees. But if that's the case, why wasn't it used for the first 1800 years of Church history?

Bishop Gasser, who was Council Father of the First Vatican Council, clarified in his Official Relatio that there were more than two cases of the Roman Pontiffs exercising the gift of infallibility.

“Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgements have gone forth from the Apostolic See;” [no. 30, Official Relatio].

 

[trulytheone]

So I have come to the point that I don't think I can bend my knee to Papal Infallibility without going against my own heart and mind. It's making me sad, as it means I can't be part of the Catholic Church I have been part of. Very sad inside, like heart breaking. I don't know how to reconcile my heart and the RCC.

To me, it's so historically easy to disprove, as Cardinal Newman also noted when it was proposed. I won't go into the arguments, but none of them work without a predisposed opinion to make them work. Simple exegesis does not come to this conclusion.

But now there is a bigger hurdle in this - it was "infallibly declared" at an infallible council. So this would also prove that Catholic councils are not infallible as they insist as well. Wow - the ball of yarn starts to unwind.

How do some very intelligent, well educated, and seemingly well intentioned people buy into this hook, line, and sinker?

I'm just feeling spiritually depressed and lost. And have lost all trust for the judgement of Catholic clergy through this.

Where would you go from here?

I suggest that you study the works of those Catholic theologians before the Second Vatican Council, especially those sections explaining the doctrine of papal infallibility, before you decide to dismiss Catholicism in your search for truth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Bishop Gasser, who was Council Father of the First Vatican Council, clarified in his Official Relatio that there were more than two cases when the Roman Pontiffs had exercised the gift of infallibility.

“Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgements have gone forth from the Apostolic See;” [no. 30, Official Relatio].

when?

 

[trulytheone]

when?

Ok I clarified it. I corrected the grammar. Yup, I’m getting tired. It’s late in this part of the world.

 

[Arc F1]

Can I ask - what did you see on the Vortex? I recently read some of the book Infiltration by Taylor Marshall. At the end he asks why we just can't admit that what the RCC is now is different that what it used to be - insisting a lack of continuity. And that's from a Catholic source.

The latest was about more sex abuse. They report on different things just about every day. I find them credible but I'm not catholic so I can't say for sure what goes on.