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BLM leader denounces icons of "white Jesus"

Nick1000

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. If there were a statue of him in America I'm sure it would have been pulled down by now because he's whiter than Andrew Jackson, lol.

iu

That little bit about Muhammad owning slaves and muslims being the world's premier slave traders in Africa is not a convenient truth these days either. Although it is just the Christians and white folks who have to account for their past. Being muslim is considered to be multicultural so that gives them a pass.
 
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Chesterton

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That little bit about Muhammad owning slaves and muslims being the world's premier slave traders in Africa is not a convenient truth these days either. Although it is just the Christians and white folks who have to account for their past. Being muslim is considered to be multicultural so that gives them a pass.
Yes that's very true, but my point was just that there's a lot of diversity in looks in the region we call the Middle East. And by all accounts Muhammad was very, very white. Which does raise an interesting question: why did Muhammad's followers so well document and praise his whiteness, while Jesus' followers make no mention of his skin color? I think some things were important to one group which weren't important to the other.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Aren't there icons in which Christ and the Theotokos are black?

icons? no, unless they have darkened with age or if the iconographer just used a darker paint. Christ should not look African anymore than He should look European.
 
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rusmeister

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icons? no, unless they have darkened with age or if the iconographer just used a darker paint. Christ should not look African anymore than He should look European.
I’m not an iconographer, father, but I think that in evangelizing where the Gospel was never heard, there’s nothing I see wrong in depicting the Gospel in local terms. Not that you’re saying there is, and formal icons certainly have rules to follow. I’m just seeing two poles of crazy extreme, one that attacks any “white Jesus” and one that forbids any depiction in local terms. (Though the former is clearly more widespread now. )
 
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ArmyMatt

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I’m not an iconographer, father, but I think that in evangelizing where the Gospel was never heard, there’s nothing I see wrong in depicting the Gospel in local terms. Not that you’re saying there is, and formal icons certainly have rules to follow. I’m just seeing two poles of crazy extreme, one that attacks any “white Jesus” and one that forbids any depiction in local terms. (Though the former is clearly more widespread now. )

my point is just that a Black/European/Asian/Polynesian Jesus isn't an icon because that's an improper depiction of Him.
 
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Dorothea

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actually, the police report from the officer who ordered the clearing said it didn't come from the president, and tear gas wasn't used. smoke grenades and pepper balls were.
When I first saw this story, it was reported (2-3 times) that it was the Attorney General Barr that ordered the dispersing of the peaceful protestors and all else that ensued.
 
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dzheremi

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Being muslim is considered to be multicultural so that gives them a pass.

How could it not be multicultural...just look at the multiplicity of cultures that particular religion has forcibly suppressed or extinguished! :rolleyes:
 
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ArmyMatt

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When I first saw this story, it was reported (2-3 times) that it was the Attorney General Barr that ordered the dispersing of the peaceful protestors and all else that ensued.

could very well have been.
 
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Hermit76

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The trend of culturizing a story should remain with fiction. Part of the issue of the day is that Jesus has been treated as a fable instead of truth. When you venture too far with pictorial license you remove part of the truth of the Incarnation. Jesus wasn't European or black or... He came as He came and that is truth. I've seen varied attempts to ethnicize icons and they're wrong. The only reason it is acceptable to place Christ (God) in an icon is because of the concrete truth of the Incarnation in its fullness. Otherwise we risk blasphemy.
 
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gzt

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Let me put it this way: if you're more concerned about one dude positing a theoretical attack to some statues than cops clubbing protesters and shooting their eyes out for sport, you've got the wrong priorities.
 
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ArmyMatt

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being concerned over King's statement does not necessarily make one more concerned about that, as opposed to police brutality. I don't think anyone on here has expressed those wrong priorities (which would indeed be wrong).
 
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rusmeister

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Let me put it this way - if you think that cops in general club protestors and shoot out their eyes for sport, you have a wildly skewed view of cops. I live in Russia, with admittedly corrupt cops who do in fact on occasion do violence to actually peaceful protestors, plant evidence, and all kinds of things. And even they don’t do it for mere sport. When I watch the “peaceful protesting” in all the videos coming from the US, it makes me want to laugh in a sad way. You guys have no clue about genuinely bad police. The bad egg is still a thing few and far between where you are.

The real test of whether a person is a fair thinker is whether they will admit when the side they defend goes wrong. I hear nothing from you guys, nothing at all about the black policemen killed by the “peaceful protestors”, the black businessmen and homeowners weeping for their homes and businesses destroyed by the “peaceful protestors”, and the millions of black babies murdered by abortion. Nothing. Silence. Zippo. Zilcho. That’s why your words are so wildly unconvincing. Everybody was with you in condemning the treatment of Floyd. But now you promote a “reform” of the country with no clear conception of form, except perhaps a Lennon-style “Imagine” utopia, of a world with no sin in our own hearts.

The problem is not “systemic racism”. The problem is sin, plain and simple, and sin knows no racial barriers. The whole aim of these “protests” runs against the grain of Orthodox teaching. They are against, not specific people who did specific things, but (speaking only about the best intentions of well-meaning people) against an attitude of the heart (racism). It is a protest that by definition can never end, just as a war on an emotion (terror) can never end. As a result, it means only anarchy. You literally might as well go out with posters denouncing sin. And that’s something you can NEVER effectively fight with protests. If the cop who killed Floyd in what was certainly manslaughter is fully justified in court, you could protest that; it is a definite thing. But you can’t protest the sin in other people’s hearts, nor should you. Our Church teaches us at all points that our concern should be with our own hearts and not with the hearts of others. We can say that specific evils are evil. Killing Floyd was a specific evil. Racism is not. Stealing the crown jewels or raping a woman is specific; envy and lust are not.

Also, statues matter. As a rule, they are longstanding things that people have agreed upon for a long time as something important to remember in history. It is a very weighty thing to pull down any statue; it requires understanding greater than those that erected the statue. It requires being able to parse through both the good and evil in a person’s life and actions, and not only justly weigh them, but have a good answer to the best objections. I see actual statues of Lenin and other Soviet heroes still standing. I say it was right to pull down the ones they did in Moscow in the 1990’s, but it is based on an awful lot of thinking and knowledge. The people in the US doing this now have no such knowledge or thought. They are idiots, useful idiots, and they don’t even rise up to the level of GK’s “splendid dupes” (unlike those who fall for the rhetoric of “systemic racism” and desire to end racism who really do); there is nothing splendid about them. But there IS something splendid about the dupes who hate the evils done to black people by racist whites, and seek to peacefully redress them. They are still duped, and their minds are befuddled, but their hearts are in the right place. Still a good heart with a befuddled mind can lead us to ruin, just as a clear and clever mind with a wicked heart can. It requires a greater willingness to engage in self-criticism if one would be as wise as a serpent, and yet harmless as a dove.
 
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Hermit76

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Let me put it this way: if you're more concerned about one dude positing a theoretical attack to some statues than cops clubbing protesters and shooting their eyes out for sport, you've got the wrong priorities.
Let me put it another way... And I won't utilize tact in this. 900 police officers have either been injured or killed during these so called peaceful demonstrations led by your Marxist Charity. You don't seem so concerned about their lives. You just spout out vague charges against them with information regarding their intent that only they and God can know (for sport). You fail to mention our Orthodox brother Officer Shay Mikalonis who was shot in the back of the head by some cowardly protestor. He is paralyzed from the neck down and will be on a ventilator for the rest of his life, which may not be that long.
So do I care what you think or what your justifications are? Nope. You sir are openly supporting a terrorist movement whose primary goal is to create chaos and destruction.

Board rules will not let me conclude the way I would like so I'll just leave you with this quote from the Wall Street Journal. The link to my source, something you don't ever seem to be able to produce, will follow.
a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.
//www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883
 
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gzt

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walking.away.123

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Skulls alone don't have vacant facial expressions; that's an artist at work.
I didn't finish my thought. If memory serves, the reason the forensic expert made the artistic choice to portray him as a commoner and not with his nose in the air like the head on a Roman statue was because Christ grew up as a carpenter. The other images in the series on what other historical figures looked like may have been contemporary or recreated in a different way. It doesn't necessarily mean they were trying to make Christ look foolish. About his skin color, I know Greeks who are darker than that. With the amount of time Christ spent outside, he was probably even darker.
 
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Platina

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Christian artwork is already actually being destroyed. Let's not put our heads in the sand.

And since when is there a rule that you have to choose between things to be concerned about? Maybe we should be concerned about all concerning things.
 
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