20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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jgr

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Thank you jgr. Yes this topic has not been treated before so I`m pleased you have brought it up.

So let`s go to Col. 1: 16 -

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether THRONES or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and FOR Him.`(Col. 1: 16)

The Eternal Throne - meaning God`s power and authority. That is obviously before and beyond His created order.

The Third heaven - Lucifer had a throne there. (Isa. 14: 12 & 13 `O Lucifer.....I will exalt my throne above...) The Father will set up a throne there for His Son. (Rev. 4:2 `a throne set in heaven.`) & appoint Him King. (Ps. 2: 6 `I have set me King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.`) Other throne will be there also. (Rev. 4: 4 `Around the throne were 24 thrones...`)

The Universe - the city coming down out of heaven from God. `...the throne of God and of the lamb..` (Rev. 22: 1) The 12 throne of the 12 apostles. (Matt. 19: 28 `you ....will also sit on 12 throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel.)

The Earth - Kings of the nations. (Rev. 21: 24 `the kings of the earth bring their glory & honour into it.`) Israel`s king. (2 Sam. 7: 16 your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.`)

The only Revelation references I can find that explicitly identify the location of the throne are Revelation 4:2 and Revelation 16:17, which plainly place it in heaven.

Revelation 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The location of the throne is not given in Revelation 21, and the voice preceding its reference originated in heaven. One would therefore reasonably presume that the throne is still located in its last identified location of heaven in Revelation 16:17. Did "the throne" migrate out of heaven to earth? Or does "the throne" exist concurrently in heaven and on earth? Is there more than one "the throne" in Revelation?
 
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Marilyn C

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The only Revelation references I can find that explicitly identify the location of the throne are Revelation 4:2 and Revelation 16:17, which plainly place it in heaven.

Revelation 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The location of the throne is not given in Revelation 21, and the voice preceding its reference originated in heaven. One would therefore reasonably presume that the throne is still located in its last identified location of heaven in Revelation 16:17. Did "the throne" migrate out of heaven to earth? Or does "the throne" exist concurrently in heaven and on earth? Is there more than one "the throne" in Revelation?

`And there shall be no more curse, but the THRONE of God and of the LAMB, shall BE IN IT.` (Rev. 22: 3)

The `it` being the New Jerusalem, signifying that the power and authority of God the Father and of Jesus is there.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes the Apostle Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7)

Whether the OT prophets had a vague or vivid revelation of the body of Christ, they were still alluding to it in their predictions, right from Genesis when Abraham was told he would be the father of many nations, right through to Malachi.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Thank you for your quite detailed and well thought out comments. I have 2 points to make.

1. Why did God bother to make the nation of Israel in the first place, (& give over most of the Bible to it)? Why did God in His foresight just not go to the main plan - all of us.

2. The Olive tree root is Christ as only He is holy and can nourish us. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

`the root is holy....become partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.`

The whole remnant idea is taught throughout the Hebrew text. It is seen in the intimacy described between God and His elect. It is witnessed in the personal exchanges between the Lord and His people. There has always been a faithful spiritual people, even before Abraham, Israel and the Jews. As the people of God became an organized community through Abraham, they were known by their outward profession, physical circumcision and godly living. This gave evidence of a saving knowledge of Yahweh God.

The outward appearance of God’s people has been a developing organism ever since the Garden of Eden. From Adam to Abraham fellowship between God and His people was practiced through individual families, and the worship of God was restricted to the individual family structure. The husband (and father) was considered the priest in the home. Up until Abraham, the relationship between God and His people had no shared ethnic or community status.

This remnant idea took on a broader and more organized form through the life of Abraham the patriarch. In him, and his progeny, God expanded His elect people – the children of promise. This was not just a natural genetic reality, because race of itself never denoted divine election. The elect community was exclusively the believing element of Abraham’s offspring who spiritually belonged to the true household of faith.

Genesis 12:1-3 records, “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee (Abraham) shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

This covenant was made with Abraham from the land of “Ur of the Chaldees” (Genesis 11:28). God specifically and sovereignly chose this man to fulfill His purposes. He was not chosen because of his ethnic pedigree but rather as a result of God’s infinite grace in using a faithful man of God. Obviously, from what we have just established, God did not make a covenant with Abraham because he was an Israeli or a Jew (as many modernists contend), because he wasn’t. This arrangement was not therefore built upon race. It was based totally on grace. God’s favor has always been governed by spiritual considerations. Nationality alone has never been anyone’s ticket into heaven.

A lot of later Jews (including the Pharisees 2000 years ago) wrongly imagined that favor with God automatically came through simply being the natural offspring of Abraham. Dispensationalists have unfortunately swallowed that same lie. But nothing could be further from the truth. Romans 4:13 instructs: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

Here we see that the blessing was not passed on through the law or by natural means, as the Jews imagined, but rather came through a people of faith. These alone were the promised seed. Natural genetics, racial birth and family background never carried any merit with God.

Romans 4:16-18 continues: “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.”

This demolishes the Dispensational fallacy that God’s earthly people are the Hebrew people who foolishly put their confidence in keeping the law. Clearly, it is the household of faith that are the promised seed. It is they alone who are God’s holy remnant.

The spiritual birthright went from Abraham to Isaac, and then from Isaac to Jacob. It was not passed on indiscriminately or unconditionally to all of Abraham’s physical offspring but rather spiritually and purposely. Isaac spoke over Jacob, that crafty supplanter, in Genesis 27:28-29: “God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine: Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.”

The blessing of God did not rest upon both Esau and Isaac but only Isaac. Remember, both were the natural offspring of Abraham. But only Isaac carried the promise. Esau is depicted as a child of the devil. This nails the lie to the whole unscriptural elevation of natural ethnic Israel today. Being one of the patriarch’s physical offspring did not automatically equate to being one of the people of God:

God specifically differentiates between the natural seed of Abraham. He sovereignly and discriminately puts His blessing upon Isaac and not Esau. You don’t need to study the story of Esau long before you see why this happened. Genesis 25:32 reveals Esau’s hideous attitude to the birthright. He asks: “what profit shall this birthright do to me?” This statement by Esau is amazing. He strikingly failed to value the birthright and thus failed to take a hold of it.

Hebrews 12:16-17 adds: “Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”

It is hard to believe it, but Esau sold his whole destiny and inheritance for a measly bowl of lentil soup. Essentially, he was a natural man who was more interested in his natural needs than his spiritual destiny. Or put simply, Esau sold his eternal inheritance in order to satisfy his ugly flesh. This is the way the unregenerate operate. Malachi 1:2-3 confirms: “Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

Here is a very solemn text, confirming that the blessing of God did not just come through natural birth, it came through a promised seed. It was experienced by God’s chosen people, those who were in personal covenant arrangement with Him. Salvation and eternal life never came through genetics, but grace. So being a Hebrew never meant automatic favor with God.

Romans 9:6-13 explains how God’s people and the seed of promise are not a natural but a spiritual seed. In his thesis on the promised seed, we find Jacob and us the believing Gentiles. He asserts: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

The whole of Paul’s teaching in this New Testament passage is establishing who “the children of God” really were/are. We see that Abraham had a natural lineage and also a spiritual lineage. Significantly, it was only the spiritual seed that carried any spiritual credentials. Paul distinguished here between biological Israel and faithful Israel. He shows that these are two different diverse peoples. In doing this he is attempting to illustrate the impotence of the natural and the potency of the spiritual.

Just because they belonged to Israel (or the natural seed of Abraham) did not signify that they were God’s chosen people. He shows how “the children of the flesh” are not “the children of God;” it is rather “the children of the promise” – faithful believing Israel. How can Dispensationalists get around this? No one should miss the distinction between the true spiritual seed of Abraham and the mere natural seed. Plainly: “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children” (Romans 9:6). Paul demonstrates that it is “the children of the promise” that “are counted for the seed.” This spiritual company are the ones that really matter.

How do Dispensationalists not get this? They have a wrong perception of who the Old Testament people of God are. Because of this they get confused about who the New Testament people of God are. That Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the Apostle blows apart the fleshly genetic hope of the natural children of Abraham. He then demonstrates how the favor of God does not rest on ethnicity. Their racial credentials mean nothing. Those within the natural Abrahamic family that reject God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any considered as God’s chosen people. Whilst God’s blessing would be upon Abraham’s seed it would not be because of natural pedigree but for spiritual pedigree.

Paul expands upon this great truth in Galatians 4:21-31, by asking a question: “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” or “born after the Spirit.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural ancestry means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.
 
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Marilyn C

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But whether the OT prophets had a vague or vivid revelation of the body of Christ, they were still alluding to them in their predictions, right from Genesis when Abraham was told he would be the father of many nations, right through to Malachi.

But that is just Gentile nations not Jews and Gentiles into one Body. That was NOT known and an amazing revelation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You, and all those other people you know are wrong.
Proved by how you simply don't have any scripture to show that God will confer immortality or 'glorified bodies' onto anyone before the Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
That idea is quite illogical, as having immortals and mortals together in the Millennium is untenable. And don't say we go to heaven either; Jesus said that was impossible. John 3:13

Only those who have eyes to see will get God's truth. I will start with one text at a time because your MO is to avoid everything submitted to you that rebut your theology. You tend to stick to a couple of Scriptures and a couple of arguments and keep repeating them, even though you have been shown many times where you are misinterpreting them.

In Luke 20:34-36 Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.
 
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Marilyn C

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The whole remnant idea is taught throughout the Hebrew text. It is seen in the intimacy described between God and His elect. It is witnessed in the personal exchanges between the Lord and His people. There has always been a faithful spiritual people, even before Abraham, Israel and the Jews. As the people of God became an organized community through Abraham, they were known by their outward profession, physical circumcision and godly living. This gave evidence of a saving knowledge of Yahweh God.

This remnant idea took on a broader and more organized form through the life of Abraham the patriarch. In him, and his progeny, God expanded His elect people – the children of promise. This was not just a natural genetic reality, because race of itself never denoted divine election. The elect community was exclusively the believing element of Abraham’s offspring who spiritually belonged to the true household of faith.

Genesis 12:1-3 records, “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee (Abraham) shall all families of the earth be blessed.”

This covenant was made with Abraham from the land of “Ur of the Chaldees” (Genesis 11:28). God specifically and sovereignly chose this man to fulfill His purposes. He was not chosen because of his ethnic pedigree but rather as a result of God’s infinite grace in using a faithful man of God. Obviously, from what we have just established, God did not make a covenant with Abraham because he was an Israeli or a Jew (as many modernists contend), because he wasn’t. This arrangement was not therefore built upon race. It was based totally on grace. God’s favor has always been governed by spiritual considerations. Nationality alone has never been anyone’s ticket into heaven.

A lot of later Jews (including the Pharisees 2000 years ago) wrongly imagined that favor with God automatically came through simply being the natural offspring of Abraham. Dispensationalists have unfortunately swallowed that same lie. But nothing could be further from the truth. Romans 4:13 instructs: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

Here we see that the blessing was not passed on through the law or by natural means, as the Jews imagined, but rather came through a people of faith. These alone were the promised seed. Natural genetics, racial birth and family background never carried any merit with God.

Romans 4:16-18 continues: “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.”

This demolishes the Dispensational fallacy that God’s earthly people are the Hebrew people who foolishly put their confidence in keeping the law. Clearly, it is the household of faith that are the promised seed. It is they alone who are God’s holy remnant.

The spiritual birthright went from Abraham to Isaac, and then from Isaac to Jacob. It was not passed on indiscriminately or unconditionally to all of Abraham’s physical offspring but rather spiritually and purposely. Isaac spoke over Jacob, that crafty supplanter, in Genesis 27:28-29: “God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine: Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.”

The blessing of God did not rest upon both Esau and Isaac but only Isaac. Remember, both were the natural offspring of Abraham. But only Isaac carried the promise. Esau is depicted as a child of the devil. This nails the lie to the whole unscriptural elevation of natural ethnic Israel today. Being one of the patriarch’s physical offspring did not automatically equate to being one of the people of God:

God specifically differentiates between the natural seed of Abraham. He sovereignly and discriminately puts His blessing upon Isaac and not Esau. You don’t need to study the story of Esau long before you see why this happened. Genesis 25:32 reveals Esau’s hideous attitude to the birthright. He asks: “what profit shall this birthright do to me?” This statement by Esau is amazing. He strikingly failed to value the birthright and thus failed to take a hold of it.

Hebrews 12:16-17 adds: “Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”

It is hard to believe it, but Esau sold his whole destiny and inheritance for a measly bowl of lentil soup. Essentially, he was a natural man who was more interested in his natural needs than his spiritual destiny. Or put simply, Esau sold his eternal inheritance in order to satisfy his ugly flesh. This is the way the unregenerate operate. Malachi 1:2-3 confirms: “Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

Here is a very solemn text, confirming that the blessing of God did not just come through natural birth, it came through a promised seed. It was experienced by God’s chosen people, those who were in personal covenant arrangement with Him. Salvation and eternal life never came through genetics, but grace. So being a Hebrew never meant automatic favor with God.

Romans 9:6-13 explains how God’s people and the seed of promise are not a natural but a spiritual seed. In his thesis on the promised seed, we find Jacob and us the believing Gentiles. He asserts: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

The whole of Paul’s teaching in this New Testament passage is establishing who “the children of God” really were/are. We see that Abraham had a natural lineage and also a spiritual lineage. Significantly, it was only the spiritual seed that carried any spiritual credentials. Paul distinguished here between biological Israel and faithful Israel. He shows that these are two different diverse peoples. In doing this he is attempting to illustrate the impotence of the natural and the potency of the spiritual.

Just because they belonged to Israel (or the natural seed of Abraham) did not signify that they were God’s chosen people. He shows how “the children of the flesh” are not “the children of God;” it is rather “the children of the promise” – faithful believing Israel. How can Dispensationalists get around this? No one should miss the distinction between the true spiritual seed of Abraham and the mere natural seed. Plainly: “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children” (Romans 9:6). Paul demonstrates that it is “the children of the promise” that “are counted for the seed.” This spiritual company are the ones that really matter.

How do Dispensationalists not get this? They have a wrong perception of who the Old Testament people of God are. Because of this they get confused about who the New Testament people of God are. That Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the Apostle blows apart the fleshly genetic hope of the natural children of Abraham. He then demonstrates how the favor of God does not rest on ethnicity. Their racial credentials mean nothing. Those within the natural Abrahamic family that reject God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any considered as God’s chosen people. Whilst God’s blessing would be upon Abraham’s seed it would not be because of natural pedigree but for spiritual pedigree.

Paul expands upon this great truth in Galatians 4:21-31, by asking a question: “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

The whole discourse here focuses in on identifying what is of God and what is not, especially in regard to Abraham’s descendants. The dividing factor comes down to: men are either “born after the flesh” or “born after the Spirit.” This has always been the case from the beginning. Race or physical birthright was never the determining feature when it came to blessing. It was instead spiritual vitality. After all, both of these boys were biological children of Abraham. But the difference between them was that Isaac was a child of promise and Ishmael was not. Those who are merely born naturally (regardless of their race), or who have only experienced one birth, are of the devil, those who have experienced a second birth – a spiritual conversion, belong to God. The writer demonstrates how natural ancestry means nothing, even if your blood father was Abraham himself.

I agree, `after the Spirit,` that no flesh may glorify.

So....as God made us alive, (by His Spirit) so I believe He will make Israel as a nation, alive unto Himself by His SPIRIT.

`For I do not desire brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so ALL Israel will be saved.` (Rom. 11: 25 & 26)

`The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Rom. 11: 29)

`And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the SPIRIT OF GRACE AND SUPPLICATION; then they will look on Me whom they HAVE PIERCED; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 10)
 
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sovereigngrace

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But that is just Gentile nations not Jews and Gentiles into one Body. That was NOT known and an amazing revelation.

I agree! The joining of them together on an equal footing was the mystery, the NT Church was not the mystery as Dispys allege. Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand new construction started at Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God's great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”
 
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keras

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In Luke 20:34-36 Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
Good quote.
Too bad Jesus didn't state when it would happen. We get that truth from Revelation 20:11-15, not until the Book of Life is opened is immortality given.
Any theory that a general resurrection will happen before then, is a false teaching, a Satanic lie that many have fallen for.
The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.
The ancient nation of Israel is foundational to Gods Plan to have a people who trust in Him and live righteous lives, in His holy Land.
Israel and Judah separated 2800+ years ago and both were taken into exile. Note in Ezekiel 4:4-6 that they are to be exiled for a decreed time.

Judah has returned, but in apostasy and are not the people God wants there. They will be uprooted, along with all the evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14
But the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations, are known to God; Amos 9:9, and are now the Christian peoples. Jesus WAS successful! Matthew 15:24
We are grafted back into the Tree by our faith and obedience. Most of us are actual descendants of Jacob, others join us to make a nation of Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
This is so Gods promises to the Patriarchs of their descendants inheriting the holy Land will come to pass.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Good quote.
Too bad Jesus didn't state when it would happen. We get that truth from Revelation 20:11-15, not until the Book of Life is opened is immortality given.
Any theory that a general resurrection will happen before then, is a false teaching, a Satanic lie that many have fallen for.

When did "this age" commence and when does it end?
When does "the age to come" (that age") commence and does it end?
 
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keras

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When did "this age" commence and when does it end?
When does "the age to come" (that age") commence and does it end?
This Church age will end when Jesus Returns.
After that is the Millennium age of Jesus reigning as King of the world.
THEN comes Eternity when those worthy, whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will live for Eternity with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7
This is as the Bible tells it, not any escapist or glorifying notions before the end of Gods 7000 year time for mortal humankind.
 
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sovereigngrace

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This Church age will end when Jesus Returns.
After that is the Millennium age of Jesus reigning as King of the world.
THEN comes Eternity when those worthy, whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will live for Eternity with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7
This is as the Bible tells it, not any escapist or glorifying notions before the end of Gods 7000 year time for mortal humankind.

Congratulations in (once again) avoiding the key issues. You must continually do this to avoid the numerous holes in your theology.

When did "this age" commence and when does it end?
When does "the age to come" (that age") commence and does it end?
 
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Marilyn C

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I agree! The joining of them together on an equal footing was the mystery, the NT Church was not the mystery as Dispys allege. Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand new construction started at Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God's great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”

I see how you would believe that. However I don`t think you have taken into account these scriptures.

1. Heb. 11. OT Saints looking for a city. (v. 10 & 16) Then we read in v. 40 -

`God having provided something better for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb.12: 40)

There we see the US and THEY. We, the Body of Christ are given `something better.` In the Greek that means a greater dominion. We are promised to sit with the Lord on His own throne in the highest realm. (Rev. 3: 21) Whereas the OT saints have been promised the city which come DOWN out of heaven FROM GOD.

Big difference in inheritance there.

2. Heb. 12: 22 - 24. The General Assembly in the highest realm.

`You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...`

There we see `the church of the first-born` AND the `spirits` of just men, (& women). Two groups. The church will stay on Mount Zion, the ruling area, while the just men, OT saints will come down out of heaven from God, in the city.
 
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jgr

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`And there shall be no more curse, but the THRONE of God and of the LAMB, shall BE IN IT.` (Rev. 22: 3)

The `it` being the New Jerusalem, signifying that the power and authority of God the Father and of Jesus is there.

Where is the New Jerusalem at this point?
 
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Marilyn C

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Where is the New Jerusalem at this point?

The New Jerusalem written about in Heb. 12: 22 & 23 is in the highest realm, - angels, church, just men, God the Father, Jesus.

Then in Rev. 22: 1 the city has come down out of heaven from God. So at that point it is in the Universal realm above the earth. The nations walk in its light.
 
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The New Jerusalem written about in Heb. 12: 22 & 23 is in the highest realm, - angels, church, just men, God the Father, Jesus.

Then in Rev. 22: 1 the city has come down out of heaven from God. So at that point it is in the Universal realm above the earth. The nations walk in its light.

New Jerusalem comes down in Revelation 21:2, and Revelation 21:24 suggests that it is on the new earth.
 
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Marilyn C

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New Jerusalem comes down in Revelation 21:2, and Revelation 21:24 suggests that it is on the new earth.

The people walk in its light, thus it will need to be above the earth, as the earth rotates then all nations can have some light.

God planned that the Universal area, (principalities and powers realm) should also have rulership under Christ.
 
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keras

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Congratulations in (once again) avoiding the key issues. You must continually do this to avoid the numerous holes in your theology.

When did "this age" commence and when does it end?
When does "the age to come" (that age") commence and does it end?
As Marylin says; You do not take into account the scriptures.
Like many, you have fixed beliefs and no matter what reasoned and scripturally supported proofs are presented, you reject them all.
Only as the end times events take place, will most people finally realize their mistaken beliefs.

Until you provide a scripture that says any resurrection other that the Trib martyrs, who include the 2 Witnesses, will happen before the GWT Judgment, I will continue to call you out for false teaching.
 
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sovereigngrace

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As Marylin says; You do not take into account the scriptures.
Like many, you have fixed beliefs and no matter what reasoned and scripturally supported proofs are presented, you reject them all.
Only as the end times events take place, will most people finally realize their mistaken beliefs.

Until you provide a scripture that says any resurrection other that the Trib martyrs, who include the 2 Witnesses, will happen before the GWT Judgment, I will continue to call you out for false teaching.

These were simple questions that I was asking you. You continually avoid Scripture and issues and move onto other topics. If the scripture forbids what you believe then you ignore it. That is not the way biblical interpretation works. Please address the questions, or I will take your avoidance as an admission that they negate your theology.
 
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I see how you would believe that. However I don`t think you have taken into account these scriptures.

1. Heb. 11. OT Saints looking for a city. (v. 10 & 16) Then we read in v. 40 -

`God having provided something better for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb.12: 40)

There we see the US and THEY. We, the Body of Christ are given `something better.` In the Greek that means a greater dominion. We are promised to sit with the Lord on His own throne in the highest realm. (Rev. 3: 21) Whereas the OT saints have been promised the city which come DOWN out of heaven FROM GOD.

Big difference in inheritance there.

2. Heb. 12: 22 - 24. The General Assembly in the highest realm.

`You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...`

There we see `the church of the first-born` AND the `spirits` of just men, (& women). Two groups. The church will stay on Mount Zion, the ruling area, while the just men, OT saints will come down out of heaven from God, in the city.

You seem determined to divide the people of God up; but that is not the heart of Christ. Christ came to unite the old testament saints and the new testament saints.
 
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